Top 25 talk

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Very interesting insight in how things work and how individuals view things differently. Just for fun, I sat back and asked myself, how would I go about ranking the top 25? What approach would I take?

I came up with a 2 work reply:

Beats me!

Seriously, how would I be able to objectively (as possible) rank teams I am totally unfamiliar with? For those who vote, I say thank you. I'm assuming you spend some time in getting to understand the top teams and follow their progress. It's a lot of work. I'm glad I don't have to do it!

Yeah, it takes a little while to get over the pressure and just trust yourself.  Do your best and hopefully the collective wisdom of 25 people will cover over your glaring mistakes.

[Jay Murry]

It is fun to see the finished product, knowing that there are different interpretations of game results, different approaches of ranking teams, and pairs of eyes all across the country. At the end of the week, the final weekly poll is a pretty good blend of coffee from many kinds of beans.

[Gregory Sager]

I found it kind of funny after the discussion earlier this week that IWU went out and lost to an inferior team (not trying to slight North Central - just stating that in comparison to IWU they are inferior). Maybe the IWU ceiling isn't quite as high as some folks believe. 

I don't question the ceiling at all, however they do seem to have a lower floor than other contenders.

Good point about the floor, although Carthage, as I said on Wednesday, would beg to differ about the Titans having "shown up massively in pretty much every big game they've had." Today the Firebirds beat IWU by 11 in a game that Carthage led for almost the entire second half, including by as much as 14. As a result, Carthage has swept Illinois Wesleyan this season (although it's possible that the two teams will meet again in the CCIW tourney), and the Firebirds are now in first place in the CCIW.

[Gregory Sager]

BTW, aside from pointing out that I disagree with ranking them #1, I'm not ragging on the Titans. The CCIW is an incredibly tough league, always has been. It's not a mere coincidence that nobody has gone undefeated in the CCIW since Richard Nixon was in the White House.

The flip side is that the CCIW double round-robin gauntlet is great preparation for tournament play if you manage to get your ticket to the dance punched.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Ultimately, all the things that make voting for the Top 25 difficult this year are going to make for a fantastic tournament.  Is there a favorite out there?  No chance.  Is there a team you'd be shocked to see lose in the first weekend?  I don't think so.

It's going to be a great six weeks upcoming!

[GusD]

Let me start out by saying that it would not be at all surprising if IWU stood at the top of the pile when the season's final buzzer sounds.
And, I'm not sure what anyone's floor or ceiling or whatever is, but now those supposedly #1 mighty (small m  ) Titans have lost two in a row. But granted, last night's loss wasn't to another "inferior" team as on Wednesday. Perhaps the Titans problem is winning away from the Taj Mahal, oops, Shirk Center? Although, aren't #1 teams supposed to also win on the road?
At any rate, floor, ceiling, or whatever, is there another team that more often profits in polls by it's past reputation than IWU?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Let me start out by saying that it would not be at all surprising if IWU stood at the top of the pile when the season's final buzzer sounds.
And, I'm not sure what anyone's floor or ceiling or whatever is, but now those supposedly #1 mighty (small m  ) Titans have lost two in a row. But granted, last night's loss wasn't to another "inferior" team as on Wednesday. Perhaps the Titans problem is winning away from the Taj Mahal, oops, Shirk Center? Although, aren't #1 teams supposed to also win on the road?
At any rate, floor, ceiling, or whatever, is there another team that more often profits in polls by it's past reputation than IWU?

There's a whole class of blueblood programs who get the benefit of the doubt based on past performance.  That's one of the ways to make decisions when it's unclear which teams are better.  Williams, Randolph-Macon, Christopher Newport, WashU, Stevens Point, Whitworth, WPI.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

#18 St Thomas (TX) currently leads Austin 56-47 with 10:58 to go.

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	621	Wesleyan	22-0	won at Bates, 73-67 OT
#2	578	Illinois Wesleyan	18-4	LOST at North Central (Ill.), 64-72; LOST at Carthage, 74-85
#3	566	New York University	19-1	def. #24 Chicago, 61-59; def. #10 Washington U., 77-58
#4	559	UW-Platteville	19-2	def. #6 UW-La Crosse, 83-73; def. UW-Stevens Point, 78-69
#5	454	Hampden-Sydney	19-3	def. #28 Virginia Wesleyan, 66-47; won at Bridgewater (Va.), 83-62
#6	449	UW-La Crosse	17-4	LOST at #4 UW-Platteville, 73-83; won at UW-Eau Claire, 60-55
#7	443	Trine	18-3	LOST at Hope, 71-79; won at Alma, 81-67
#8	442	Wisconsin Lutheran	20-1	def. Dominican, 93-90; def. Benedictine, 81-53
#9	404	St. John's	19-2	won at St. Scholastica, 100-66; def. Concordia-Moorhead, 80-73 OT
#10	401	Washington U.	15-5	LOST at Brandeis, 79-86; LOST at #3 New York University, 58-77
#11	397	Emory	17-3	won at Carnegie Mellon, 97-72; won at Case Western Reserve, 93-54
#12	392	Randolph-Macon	19-3	won at Shenandoah, 73-60; def. Eastern Mennonite, 78-48
#13	357	Trinity (Conn.)	19-3	won at Bates, 71-44
#14	306	Christopher Newport	18-4	won at Salisbury, 81-69
#15	240	Tufts	19-4	def. Amherst, 90-51; def. T#39 Hamilton, 84-69
#16	224	Whitworth	19-2	won at Lewis and Clark, 74-71; won at Willamette, 81-63
#17	178	WPI	19-2	def. Emerson, 72-46
#18	177	St. Thomas (Texas)	20-1	def. University of Dallas, 80-59; def. Austin, 85-59
#19	176	Redlands	18-3	def. #27 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, 70-65; def. #20 Cal Lutheran, 77-65
#20	169	Cal Lutheran	17-4	def. La Verne, 87-66; LOST at #19 Redlands, 65-77
#21	138	Denison	19-2	won at Wabash, 53-51; def. Wittenberg, 64-56
#22	97	Keene State	18-3	won at Castleton, 92-75; def. Mass-Boston, 116-87
#23	63	Calvin	15-6	won at Alma, 74-52; won at Adrian, 92-55
#24	55	Chicago	15-5	LOST at #3 New York University, 59-61; won at Brandeis, 75-69
#25	43	Anderson	18-4	def. Manchester, 98-83; LOST to Rose-Hulman, 77-85

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	41	Trinity (Texas)	18-3	won at Texas Lutheran, 86-38; won at Southwestern, 82-57
#27	24	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	14-6	LOST at #19 Redlands, 65-70; LOST at Whittier, 71-76
#28	21	Virginia Wesleyan	16-5	LOST at #5 Hampden-Sydney, 47-66
#29	20	John Carroll	16-5	won at Mount Union, 77-72; won at Wilmington, 81-65
#30	16	Gustavus Adolphus	19-3	def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 65-55; won at Bethel, 104-75
#31	14	Roanoke	17-4	def. #35 Guilford, 78-53; won at Randolph, 94-66
T#32	10	Stevens	16-5	LOST to Arcadia, 63-66; LOST at Misericordia, 66-75
T#32	10	Catholic	18-3	def. Elizabethtown, 68-59; def. Scranton, 73-46
#34	9	RPI	17-4	LOST at Union, 77-79 OT; won at Ithaca, 54-51
#35	8	Guilford	17-5	LOST at #31 Roanoke, 53-78; def. Washington and Lee, 67-52
#36	7	Belhaven	19-3	won at Huntingdon, 71-67; def. Covenant, 103-80
T#37	4	Drew	18-3	def. Moravian, 86-65; won at Juniata, 90-66
T#37	4	Nebraska Wesleyan	16-5	LOST at Wartburg, 60-63
T#39	2	Hamilton	17-5	won at Connecticut College, 69-57; LOST at #15 Tufts, 69-84
T#39	2	North Park	14-8	LOST to Wheaton (Ill.), 89-102; LOST at North Central (Ill.), 81-86
T#39	2	Pitt-Bradford	19-1	won at Hilbert, 132-125 3OT; won at Carlow, 109-97
T#42	1	Gettysburg	16-5	LOST at Johns Hopkins, 66-72; won at Muhlenberg, 66-53
T#42	1	Stockton	16-6	won at New Jersey City, 73-72; LOST at Montclair State, 86-91

[WashedUp1]

Let me start out by saying that it would not be at all surprising if IWU stood at the top of the pile when the season's final buzzer sounds.
And, I'm not sure what anyone's floor or ceiling or whatever is, but now those supposedly #1 mighty (small m  ) Titans have lost two in a row. But granted, last night's loss wasn't to another "inferior" team as on Wednesday. Perhaps the Titans problem is winning away from the Taj Mahal, oops, Shirk Center? Although, aren't #1 teams supposed to also win on the road?
At any rate, floor, ceiling, or whatever, is there another team that more often profits in polls by it's past reputation than IWU?

There's a whole class of blueblood programs who get the benefit of the doubt based on past performance.  That's one of the ways to make decisions when it's unclear which teams are better.  Williams, Randolph-Macon, Christopher Newport, WashU, Stevens Point, Whitworth, WPI.

Ryan - I have a ton of respect for you and all you do for D3. But putting WPI in the same "blueblood" group as Williams, RMC, CNU, WashU, Stevens Point & Whitworth?

Since the 2015-16 season, WPI has three tournament appearances total & three wins in the tournament. If that is what is considered a blueblood......

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Let me start out by saying that it would not be at all surprising if IWU stood at the top of the pile when the season's final buzzer sounds.
And, I'm not sure what anyone's floor or ceiling or whatever is, but now those supposedly #1 mighty (small m  ) Titans have lost two in a row. But granted, last night's loss wasn't to another "inferior" team as on Wednesday. Perhaps the Titans problem is winning away from the Taj Mahal, oops, Shirk Center? Although, aren't #1 teams supposed to also win on the road?
At any rate, floor, ceiling, or whatever, is there another team that more often profits in polls by it's past reputation than IWU?

There's a whole class of blueblood programs who get the benefit of the doubt based on past performance.  That's one of the ways to make decisions when it's unclear which teams are better.  Williams, Randolph-Macon, Christopher Newport, WashU, Stevens Point, Whitworth, WPI.

Ryan - I have a ton of respect for you and all you do for D3. But putting WPI in the same "blueblood" group as Williams, RMC, CNU, WashU, Stevens Point & Whitworth?

Since the 2015-16 season, WPI has three tournament appearances total & three wins in the tournament. If that is what is considered a blueblood......

WPI has basically had a Top 20 team for two straight decades.  They play great defense and compete with 95% of the teams in the division.  That's reliability.  When it comes to Top 25, if I'm stuck picking between WPI and a team on a hot streak for the first time in a decade for my #25 spot, I'm going with WPI almost every time.

I'd put Whitworth in the same category.  They've rarely got teams capable of winning the title, but they've got Top 25 teams almost every year.  That's blueblood to me.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	624	Wesleyan	24-0	won at Bowdoin, 84-73; won at Colby, 91-64
#2	591	New York University	21-1	won at #5 Emory, 82-79; won at Rochester, 86-69
#3	584	UW-Platteville	21-2	won at UW-Eau Claire, 72-50; def. UW-Stout, 76-58
#4	512	Hampden-Sydney	20-4	def. Guilford, 78-71; LOST at #28 Roanoke, 72-81
#5	481	Emory	18-4	LOST to #2 New York University, 79-82; def. Brandeis, 89-83 OT
#6	460	St. John's	20-3	def. Macalester, 80-63; LOST at #29 Gustavus Adolphus, 62-66
#7	455	Wisconsin Lutheran	21-2	LOST at MSOE, 83-91; won at Edgewood, 107-83
#8	448	Randolph-Macon	20-3	won at Lynchburg, 70-53
#9	434	UW-La Crosse	19-4	def. UW-Whitewater, 70-56; won at UW-Oshkosh, 75-69
#10	401	Trinity (Conn.)	21-3	won at Colby, 88-78; won at Bowdoin, 87-43
#11	352	Trine	20-3	won at Albion, 72-69; def. Olivet, 89-55
#12	350	Christopher Newport	20-4	def. Salisbury, 67-65; def. Mary Washington, 71-55
#13	321	Illinois Wesleyan	19-4	def. Millikin, 96-60
#14	304	Tufts	20-4	def. Bates, 83-75 OT
#15	248	Whitworth	21-2	def. Pacific, 84-65; def. George Fox, 92-87
#16	246	Redlands	20-3	won at La Verne, 86-78; def. Occidental, 69-67
#17	215	WPI	21-2	won at Clark, 67-64; def. MIT, 72-53
#18	187	St. Thomas (Texas)	21-2	LOST at University of the Ozarks, 76-78; won at Centenary (La.), 68-58
#19	158	Washington U.	17-5	won at Case Western Reserve, 86-68; won at Carnegie Mellon, 78-54
#20	153	Denison	21-2	won at DePauw, 77-62; won at Hiram, 77-64
#21	124	Keene State	19-4	def. Eastern Connecticut, 70-68; LOST at Western Connecticut, 73-74
#22	95	Calvin	17-6	won at Olivet, 80-75; def. Kalamazoo, 108-75
#23	76	Cal Lutheran	19-4	won at Occidental, 86-77; def. Whittier, 97-77
#24	67	Chicago	16-6	won at Carnegie Mellon, 82-68; LOST at Case Western Reserve, 79-83
#25	40	Trinity (Texas)	20-3	def. Texas Lutheran, 80-59; def. Southwestern, 94-63

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	35	Carthage	18-5	won at North Central (Ill.), 73-71; def. Wheaton (Ill.), 89-80
#27	28	Catholic	19-4	def. Juniata, 75-45; LOST at #31 Drew, 70-77
#28	27	Roanoke	19-4	won at Washington and Lee, 84-57; def. #4 Hampden-Sydney, 81-72
#29	25	Gustavus Adolphus	21-3	won at St. Olaf, 83-55; def. #6 St. John's, 66-62
#30	20	John Carroll	18-5	def. Baldwin Wallace, 82-55; def. Capital, 77-70
#31	18	Drew	20-3	won at Wilkes, 102-92; def. #27 Catholic, 77-70
#32	14	Belhaven	21-3	def. Huntingdon, 73-64; def. Asbury, 95-66
T#33	9	Virginia Wesleyan	18-5	def. Averett, 70-53; def. Bridgewater (Va.), 111-60
T#33	9	Pitt-Bradford	20-2	won at Alfred State, 108-84; LOST to Penn State-Behrend, 62-69
#35	7	Anderson	19-5	won at Hanover, 84-81; LOST at Berea, 71-96
#36	5	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	16-6	def. Occidental, 86-57; def. Pomona-Pitzer, 90-77
#37	2	Maryville	18-5	won at Asbury, 89-70

[WashedUp1]

Let me start out by saying that it would not be at all surprising if IWU stood at the top of the pile when the season's final buzzer sounds.
And, I'm not sure what anyone's floor or ceiling or whatever is, but now those supposedly #1 mighty (small m  ) Titans have lost two in a row. But granted, last night's loss wasn't to another "inferior" team as on Wednesday. Perhaps the Titans problem is winning away from the Taj Mahal, oops, Shirk Center? Although, aren't #1 teams supposed to also win on the road?
At any rate, floor, ceiling, or whatever, is there another team that more often profits in polls by it's past reputation than IWU?

There's a whole class of blueblood programs who get the benefit of the doubt based on past performance.  That's one of the ways to make decisions when it's unclear which teams are better.  Williams, Randolph-Macon, Christopher Newport, WashU, Stevens Point, Whitworth, WPI.

Ryan - I have a ton of respect for you and all you do for D3. But putting WPI in the same "blueblood" group as Williams, RMC, CNU, WashU, Stevens Point & Whitworth?

Since the 2015-16 season, WPI has three tournament appearances total & three wins in the tournament. If that is what is considered a blueblood......

WPI has basically had a Top 20 team for two straight decades.  They play great defense and compete with 95% of the teams in the division.  That's reliability.  When it comes to Top 25, if I'm stuck picking between WPI and a team on a hot streak for the first time in a decade for my #25 spot, I'm going with WPI almost every time.

I'd put Whitworth in the same category.  They've rarely got teams capable of winning the title, but they've got Top 25 teams almost every year.  That's blueblood to me.

It was shared earlier that the Top 25 poll is meant to be forward looking - trying to identify who will be the top 25 teams at the end of the year. I believe the statement was something along the lines of "if it was meant to be a retrospective, then we can look at computer polls for that."

So all these years of voting for WPI to be a top 25, you would think they would be routinely reaching the Round of 32 or the Sweet 16. Because that is where you would find the teams that are the top 25 in the country at the end of the year.

[Pat Coleman]

Let me start out by saying that it would not be at all surprising if IWU stood at the top of the pile when the season's final buzzer sounds.
And, I'm not sure what anyone's floor or ceiling or whatever is, but now those supposedly #1 mighty (small m  ) Titans have lost two in a row. But granted, last night's loss wasn't to another "inferior" team as on Wednesday. Perhaps the Titans problem is winning away from the Taj Mahal, oops, Shirk Center? Although, aren't #1 teams supposed to also win on the road?
At any rate, floor, ceiling, or whatever, is there another team that more often profits in polls by it's past reputation than IWU?

There's a whole class of blueblood programs who get the benefit of the doubt based on past performance.  That's one of the ways to make decisions when it's unclear which teams are better.  Williams, Randolph-Macon, Christopher Newport, WashU, Stevens Point, Whitworth, WPI.

Ryan - I have a ton of respect for you and all you do for D3. But putting WPI in the same "blueblood" group as Williams, RMC, CNU, WashU, Stevens Point & Whitworth?

Since the 2015-16 season, WPI has three tournament appearances total & three wins in the tournament. If that is what is considered a blueblood......

WPI has basically had a Top 20 team for two straight decades.  They play great defense and compete with 95% of the teams in the division.  That's reliability.  When it comes to Top 25, if I'm stuck picking between WPI and a team on a hot streak for the first time in a decade for my #25 spot, I'm going with WPI almost every time.

I'd put Whitworth in the same category.  They've rarely got teams capable of winning the title, but they've got Top 25 teams almost every year.  That's blueblood to me.

It was shared earlier that the Top 25 poll is meant to be forward looking - trying to identify who will be the top 25 teams at the end of the year. I believe the statement was something along the lines of "if it was meant to be a retrospective, then we can look at computer polls for that."

So all these years of voting for WPI to be a top 25, you would think they would be routinely reaching the Round of 32 or the Sweet 16. Because that is where you would find the teams that are the top 25 in the country at the end of the year.

Depending on who they get matched up against.

And just FYI, I think you're quoting Ryan but that's not an official descriptor of the Top 25.

[D3BBALL]

I always thought top 25 was at that time of the vote, not looking forward or who is hot or not.
On WPI I would say they are somewhere in the middle in this argument. They have been dominant in their conference but as the NPI shows it does not value their conference that highly nor did the committee last year and the year before. I believe they were regular season champs, or tied, lost in conference playoffs and did not receive a bid the last 2 years. I believe both years they started in top 25 but by regular season end they were not. Both years only 1 team made NCAA out of the NEWMAC. This year unless they lose the conference championship, which is very possible, only 1 team gets in. This year not sure they're out of conference schedule was that good except tufts, who they did beat, but they lost to Suffolk on neutral court. No matter what they are in NCAA, but I don't view them as a contender for final 4. Since 2007 they have made it past the 2nd round once and been in the NCAA like 10 times. How many of those years were there multiple bids.
So I think they are close but not blue blood, as they haven't really had the benefit of blue bloods, as they have had good records and then don't make NCAA.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I didn't vote for WPI this week.