Top 25 talk

[hopefan]

FDF  -  Remember the scoreboard of D3Hoops gives top 25 scores first before going to Alphabetical for everyone else.


Other top 25 losers in addition to 8 Albion were 7 St John Fisher (to Great Lakes Baldwin Wallace), 11 Virginia Wesleyan to Trinity Tx, 13 UW Whitewater to Loras

[Flying Dutch Fan]

OOPS - All I can say is old age ain't for sissies! 

[smedindy]

So much for Bethany....

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'm not sure if there will be a new poll this week or if we're waiting until next week, but here it goes:

#1   IWU wins over TX-Dallas and Wabash
#2   Oshkosh hasn't played yet
#3   Wooster wins over Kalamazoo and Stout
#4   Puget Sound win over Evergreen State
#5   Amherst wins over Fitchburg State and Endicott
#6   York wins over Desales and Dickinson
#7   St. John Fisher loss to Baldwin-Wallace, win over Deleware Valley
#8   Albion loss to Michigan-Dearborn (non d3), win over Depauw
#9   Hanover wins over Webster and Maryville (Missouri)
#10 Wittenberg wins over Tufts and #23 Rochester
#11 VA Wesleyan loss to Trinity (TX), win over NC Wesleyan
#12 Ramapo wins over Medgar Evers and FDU-Fordham
#13 Whitewater loss to Loras, win over Robert Morris-Springfield
#14 Wartburg win over Concordia-Moorhead, loss to Briarcliff (non d3)
#15 Elmhurst loss to Hope
#16 John Carroll wins over Emory and Henry and Mount Saint Joseph
#17 WPI wins over Worcester State (OT) and Nichols (both games WAY too close)
#18 Randolph-Macon wins over Averett and Lebanon Valley
#19 Gustavus Adolphus win over Luther
#20 Platteville win over Simpson, loss to Robert Morris-Chicago (non d3)
#21 Mississippi College win over Carver Bible
#22 Aurora wins over McMurry and Wheaton (IL)
#23 Rochester win over Alfred, loss to #10 Wittenberg
#24 Calvin wins over Grace and Whitworth
#25 Catholic wins over Salve Regina and UMASS-Dartmouth

[Coach C]

Gang -

No poll this week.  A few more games should help settle things a bit.  To me the UWWW loss was the most surprising.

C

[Titan Q]

The UW-Whitewater loss to Loras shocked me.  Especially considering Whitewater had just played D1 Marquette really tough (8 point game with a few minutes left) a few days before in exhibition play.  Loras went on to get beat by North Central of the CCIW (picked to finish 4th or 5th in the conference) by 13 the next night in a game that really wasn't very close.

Loras did have a good season last year - 18-8 overall, 12-4 in the IIAC, including a win over Buena Vista.  But still, that's not a game a top 3 WIAC team should lose.

Big in-region loss for a Whitewater team that's more than likely a Pool C candidate due to how good UW-Oshkosh is...and a big in-region win for Loras.

[John Gleich]

I'm really more surprized at the collapse than the loss.  I mean, losses happen, teams have off nights, especially early in the year (teams aren't running on all cylinders)... but they had an 18 point lead with 12 minutes to go.  I honestly can't remember a meltdown like that since Lawrence came back and forced overtime against Sul Ross State out in Tacoma in '03-'04 (SRS had an 18 pt lead with a little over 11 to go... see box score HERE. It takes a concerted effort to give up an 18 pt lead with 12 minutes, either from the leading team, the trailing team, or a combination of both.  Sul Ross had 9 TO's in the last 12 minutes.  UWW was 1/8 from the field in the last 5 minutes, but the 18 point lead had already disintegrated by then (they held just a 3 pt lead... see that box score HERE.  What's odd to me is that UWW had just 4 of their 17 turnovers during that 12 minute span.  Granted, after an answering fg the proceeding possession after UWW took their 18 pt lead, the Warhawks turned it over the next two possessions, which lead to 4 Loras points (and suddenly the 18 pts was 12, with 10:31 to go).  I guess it just surprized me that Whitewater self-destructed like they did with that lead.  Maybe I'm not giving Loras enough credit, but Whitewater teams of years past would turn the heat UP when they went on a run, not let it slip away, for the most part. 

[Mr. Downtown]

See Pointspecial, the collapse doesn't surprise me.

I will challenge Whitewater's toughness any day of the week. I have been paying attention closely like you guys have for the past 3 years. The one thing I notice is that at times, Whitewater gets soft, and when things go bad, they go REALLY bad.

Another problem for them is defense, which may be linked to not being tough mentally.  And they played well for 22 minutes, and then it just came undone. Against Robert Morris was the Whitewater team we expected to play like.

Already Whitewater is inconsistent and we are two games into the season. 

[John Gleich]

I'll agree that WW has been weak at times... but historically, Whitewater has pulvarized non-conference teams...  their athleticism is more than most non-WIAC teams can handle (heck, most WIAC teams can't match up individually with UWW athletically, but they make up for it with team play).

That said, they have seemed to self-destruct towards the end of the season the last few years.  I have attributed this to them not improving as a team (relying on their personal athleticism... ok, basically, I'm fluffing it up, they play individually, boardering on selfishly) while the teams they play certainly do.

And the defense can also be attributed to players trying to do it all themselves... if they don't trust their teammates, and try and do it all themselves, then, in the longrun, against great opponents, they will fail.  Now... if their teammates can't be trusted, then it's another thing altogether, but...  I think you're on the ball with saying they aren't mentally tough.  It takes a lot more than sheer athleticism to play defense for the full 35 seconds, possession after possession.  It's the mindset of a TEAM, and I think it is instituted from above.  Now, this is by no means a knock on Pat Miller, I'm not in a position to do that, but I know first hand that Jack Bennett breathed defense, and it wasn't merely coincidence that UWSP was in the top 5 in defense the last 2 years in their Nat. Champ runs.

Btw, Oshkosh loses to Lawrence 82-75 tonight.  There's plenty to talk about them, too, starting first with Yanke's performance... 5 points, none in the second half.  For Oshkosh to reach their potential, they need him to do much more than that to take the weight off of Capelle... which in turn will give Gibson more space inside.

[cardinalpride]

I'll agree that WW has been week at times... but historically, Whitewater has pulvarized non-conference teams...  their athleticism is more than most non-WIAC teams can handle (heck, most WIAC teams can't match up individually with UWW athletically, but they make up for it with team play).

That said, they have seemed to self-destruct towards the end of the season the last few years.  I have attributed this to them not improving as a team (relying on their personal athleticism... ok, basically, I'm fluffing it up, they play individually, boardering on selfishly) while the teams they play certainly do.

And the defense can also be attributed to players trying to do it all themselves... if they don't trust their teammates, and try and do it all themselves, then, in the longrun, against great opponents, they will fail.  Now... if their teammates can't be trusted, then it's another thing altogether, but...  I think you're on the ball with saying they aren't mentally tough.  It takes a lot more than sheer athleticism to play defense for the full 35 seconds, possession after possession.  It's the mindset of a TEAM, and I think it is instituted from above.  Now, this is by no means a knock on Pat Miller, I'm not in a position to do that, but I know first hand that Jack Bennett breathed defense, and it wasn't merely coincidence that UWSP was in the top 5 in defense the last 2 years in their Nat. Champ runs.

Btw, Oshkosh losses to Lawrence 82-75 tonight.  There's plenty to talk about them, too, starting first with Yanke's performance... 5 points, none in the second half.  For Oshkosh to reach their potential, they need him to do much more than that to take the weight off of Capelle... which in turn will give Gibson more space inside.

Gentlemen, I was at this game and I wrote a long post to give you guys some insight, but my time expired on my login and it didnt post.  Its too late now i'll follow up tomorrow

[cardinalpride]

The UW-Whitewater loss to Loras shocked me.  Especially considering Whitewater had just played D1 Marquette really tough (8 point game with a few minutes left) a few days before in exhibition play.  Loras went on to get beat by North Central of the CCIW (picked to finish 4th or 5th in the conference) by 13 the next night in a game that really wasn't very close.

Loras did have a good season last year - 18-8 overall, 12-4 in the IIAC, including a win over Buena Vista.  But still, that's not a game a top 3 WIAC team should lose.

Big in-region loss for a Whitewater team that's more than likely a Pool C candidate due to how good UW-Oshkosh is...and a big in-region win for Loras.

I'll agree that WW has been week at times... but historically, Whitewater has pulvarized non-conference teams...  their athleticism is more than most non-WIAC teams can handle (heck, most WIAC teams can't match up individually with UWW athletically, but they make up for it with team play).

That said, they have seemed to self-destruct towards the end of the season the last few years.  I have attributed this to them not improving as a team (relying on their personal athleticism... ok, basically, I'm fluffing it up, they play individually, boardering on selfishly) while the teams they play certainly do.

And the defense can also be attributed to players trying to do it all themselves... if they don't trust their teammates, and try and do it all themselves, then, in the longrun, against great opponents, they will fail.  Now... if their teammates can't be trusted, then it's another thing altogether, but...  I think you're on the ball with saying they aren't mentally tough.  It takes a lot more than sheer athleticism to play defense for the full 35 seconds, possession after possession.  It's the mindset of a TEAM, and I think it is instituted from above.  Now, this is by no means a knock on Pat Miller, I'm not in a position to do that, but I know first hand that Jack Bennett breathed defense, and it wasn't merely coincidence that UWSP was in the top 5 in defense the last 2 years in their Nat. Champ runs.

Btw, Oshkosh losses to Lawrence 82-75 tonight.  There's plenty to talk about them, too, starting first with Yanke's performance... 5 points, none in the second half.  For Oshkosh to reach their potential, they need him to do much more than that to take the weight off of Capelle... which in turn will give Gibson more space inside.

See Pointspecial, the collapse doesn't surprise me.

I will challenge Whitewater's toughness any day of the week. I have been paying attention closely like you guys have for the past 3 years. The one thing I notice is that at times, Whitewater gets soft, and when things go bad, they go REALLY bad.

Another problem for them is defense, which may be linked to not being tough mentally. And they played well for 22 minutes, and then it just came undone. Against Robert Morris was the Whitewater team we expected to play like.

Already Whitewater is inconsistent and we are two games into the season.

Gentlemen I was in attendance for that game so I will share some insight with you.  I don't believe it was a case of whitewater self destructing or collapsing.  To be fair to both teams, ww was not ready for that game from a strategy stand point and i put that on the coaches and loras was a bit better than they thought.  For instance, the 13pt lead ww was able to build in the 1st half was a result of loras settling for the 3pt shot and not making them.  Hence loras shot 21% from the field on 7-32 & 4-19 from 3.  Their poor % was not a result of ww good defense, they just missed some open shots.  Some of those long rebounds from missed 3's lead to transition baskets for ww.  Combine that with Loras' inability to get to the foul line in the 1st half only 4-7 and ww was able to build a lead of 13pts that would eventually grow to 18. 

2nd half action obviously was totally different.  WW inability to defend Loras' high pick & roll offense really played out in the 2nd half.  Loras looked to attack the basket instead of settling for the 3pointer.  They were able to get to foul line and get easier baskets. Hence: shooting 61% from the field on 16-26 fg and 14-16 from the foul line.  Loras' energy and efficiency slowed WW transition game down and allowed loras to chip away at the lead.  Scoring 10 more pts from the foul line in the 2nd half without the clock moving one second was huge in the comeback. 

Now here's why I don't believe the coaching staff had WW ready for this game.   They had no consistent game plan to defend loras' screen & roll offense.  The ball defender would go over the top of the screen and there would be no help giving loras a lane to the basket.  Sometimes the ball defender would go underneath the screen leading to a wide open jump shot.  Once WW made a commitment to how they would play loras it was too late.  The ball defender started to go over the top and the screen defender would help with a step and show.  However, there was no help for the helper leaving the screener wide open for either a shot or layup.  Gentlemen, i put this one more so on the coaching staff than the players.  Another questionable move WW made was sitting a player who was 5-5 from the field with 10pts and 4 reb. in only 11min of action.  He had no foul trouble and no turnovers.  Now I don't want to speculate about why he set the player because I wasn't near the bench and i don't know much about the program.  It just seemed odd.  WW does play a ton of players.  i believe 11-13 different players got into the game.  Outside of all of that WW still had a chance to win the game down the stretch, but pt guard play was terrible.  He took bad shot after bad shot.  For whatever reason they stopped going inside to their 6-8 post player who was having a nice game.  All in all WW didn't play as well as expected and Loras was better than advertised.  I was looking forward to a NCC vs WW match up my self.  So we all were a bit disappointed from that stand point.

[cardinalpride]

The Loras vs NCC game was ok.  Loras just didn't have the man power to match NCC inside.  Loras double teamed Simmons everytime he touched it in the post.  They also played a ton of 3-2 zone.  NCC started to pull away around the ten minute mark of the second half on two big 3's by Dan Walton.  He had a huge game scoring 33pts on 14-17 shooting.  NCC was in control of the game the entire way going up by as many as 18pts before the subs came in around the 3 min mark.  At any rate, it appeard NCC had a game plan defensively for Loras screen and roll offense and carried it out.  Good win the for the Cards.   Nice start to to the season at 2-0 with Benedictine on 11/30 at home.   
Cardinal pride starts with me!!  Go Cards!!

CP

[Greek Tragedy]

Btw, Oshkosh losses to Lawrence 82-75 tonight.  There's plenty to talk about them, too, starting first with Yanke's performance... 5 points, none in the second half.  For Oshkosh to reach their potential, they need him to do much more than that to take the weight off of Capelle... which in turn will give Gibson more space inside.

If TVD was smart, he would've thrown it into Gibson EVERY possession.  LU didn't have anything to stop him.  The fouled him in the 2nd half and he made his FTs.  He was unstoppable.  LU doubled him and that's when Capelle and Jahnke have to show up and make their shots.  Defensively, Oshkosh was horrible.  Offensively, it's Gibson or nothing.  They should've pounded it inside more.  Gibson could've had 40.

[John Gleich]

Hmm... here's something to think about... I think I've discovered a new D3hoops.com curse!

In seasons starting with odd numbered years (such as this one, 2005-2006), the second ranked team will LOSE its first game!

It happened two years ago (Gustavus Adolphus actually lost their first two), it happened 4 years ago (IWU lost to Concordia (WI) in their first game).

I guess we won't be able to test this theory until the 2007-2008 season, but...

Hey, wait... actually, now that I think about it, IWU lost their first two games as well... That doesn't bode well for Oshkosh in their next game!

[Gregory Sager]

PS, you should win some sort of award for coming up with such an obscure factoid. I doff my chapeau to you, sir!