Top 25 talk

[iwumichigander]

... My point was that a team should be judged upon the current season, not any season or stretch of seasons that came before it

Greg - With due respect your entire response is replete with historical recitations.  Following your thinking -- Hamilton's prior 31 season records, Widener's storied past, North Central actually been one of the weaker programs in the CCIW over the past decade and a half... In fact, North Central's legacy pales in comparison to those of Hamilton and Widener -- both recently and long-term (your words not mine) -- are not relevant as you seem to be arguing the case for -- a team should be judged upon the current season, not any season or stretch of seasons that came before it.

If you limit to the current season only then many of the teams in the Top 25 in Week 1 would not be there.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg,

We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree, unless you can do better than that.  You demonstrated that your knowledge of d3bb history is better than mine (but I already knew that!) - my examples were ill-chosen.  But, yes, I will assume at the outset of the season that Wooster is better than Eureka (based on history!), UNLESS they both prove otherwise.  And both starting 4-0 (has Eureka EVER started 4-0?) is NOT going to change my mind.  Even Wooster starting 0-4 and Eureka starting 4-0 will change my mind ONLY in the context of who did they play (which, of course, is history again).

While the results of a given season may EVENTUALLY disprove the assumption, generally speaking 'good' programs remain good and 'bad' programs remain bad.

I suspect we agree that pre-season and early-season polls are somewhat pernicious in 'locking-in' this truism (or 'historical bias', as you prefer), but if Pat didn't do pre- and early-season polls, what the hell would we have to talk about in December?!

[Briton Backer]

#4 (soon to be #1???) Albion beats #2 Hope easily tonight.  Dominating the entire game.  They led by 20 at halftime and between 25-30 for most of the second half.

Brandon Crawford leads the way for Albion with 20 points and 10 boards.  That makes every game but one this year that Crawford has had at least 20 points and 10 boards.  If there is a better player or team in the country, I'd like to see them.

[wooscotsfan]

Wooster didn't play Eureka tonight but they got the road win!  

Final:  #3 Wooster 102  Allegheny 71

Wooster made 15 three point shots tonight and that stat plus some key steals were big factors in this game.

Wooster was led tonight by James Cooper with 17 points, Devin Fulk with 17, Tom Port with 16 and Tim Vandervaart with 16.

Wooster is 13-1, 5-0.    Next game is Saturday AT Wabash.

GO SCOTS!!

[imderekpoe]

DC,

I find your historical musings on the poll very interesting!  It certainly is an affirmation of the quality of the Wooster's program over the past 6+years that they have received votes in every poll.  Am I correct that the majority of the 8 weeks that they were out of the top 25 occurred in the 2001-02 season??

[Mr. Ypsi]

I wished I lived in California so I could have as much free time as Dave. 

Plus I could wear these  8) more often

Kudos to you Dave.

David,

I thought sac already gave credit to your research!!

But that IS impressive - who was IN the top 25 the most weeks, total (I'm guessing Woo #1, IWU #2).  Right?

[sac]

As mentioned

#4 Albion 76 #2 Hope 58

First, I'd like to congratulate the D3hoops.com pollsters for sticking with the Brits in the pre-season top 10.  I think most assumed through graduation that Albion wouldn't be the same team as a year ago.  But as I mentioned last spring I didn't think Albion would fall that far off......they have too much talent in that program right now.

Is Albion the #1 team in the country?  I don't know, tonight they were.  They certainly took it to a team that had played very well last week.   They are strong inside and when they hit the three's they are tough to beat.  They play excellent defense and are quicker at every position than I remember.

I admonished the pollsters last year for completely missing the Britons in the pre-season.  This year they got it right.

Is Hope 18 points worse than Albion?......well technically yes tonight they were.  But this was not the same Hope team I've seen all year.  Albion had a lot to do with that for sure.  But tonight was one of those, if it can go wrong it will go wrong nights.

Bottom line is I think these are two top 10 teams, and will be in the mix for NCAA bids at years end.  I can definately envision either of these teams winning out.

[David Collinge]

who was IN the top 25 the most weeks, total (I'm guessing Woo #1, IWU #2).  Right?

Unfortunately, my spreadsheet isn't set up to easily count that; it'll end up being a manual count, and that might take some time.

But no way IWU is #2.  Probably it's Wooster then UW-Stevens Point.

Am I correct that the majority of the 8 weeks that they [Wooster] were out of the top 25 occurred in the 2001-02 season??

Yes; seven weeks in '01-02, and the preseason poll for '02-'03.

Here's a new tidbit to savor.

Weeks at #1
Carthage 22
UW-Stevens Point 13
Washington U. 12
Williams 12
Hampden-Sydney 9
Illinois Wesleyan 8
Calvin 5
UW-Platteville 5
Randolph-Macon 4
Wooster 3
Rochester 2
Amherst 1
Catholic 1
Chicago 1
Otterbein 1
Wittenberg 1

Unanimous #1 selections (keeping in mind that #1 in the final poll is always unanimous; these are marked with *)

UW-Stevens Point 10**
Hampden-Sydney 6
Washington U. 5
Carthage 3
Illinois Wesleyan 2
Calvin 1*
Catholic 1*
Otterbein 1*
Williams 1*

[smedindy]

I don't think Witt will be supplanted as #1 quite yet. Just a gut feeling.

[goscots]

I agree with smedindy.

If Hope had won I could see the voters moving them into #1, but not a #4 team. Sounds like Wittenberg played a good game against a dangerous Earlham team. No reason to move them out of #1 yet.

[David Collinge]

who was IN the top 25 the most weeks, total (I'm guessing Woo #1, IWU #2).  Right?

Unfortunately, my spreadsheet isn't set up to easily count that; it'll end up being a manual count, and that might take some time.

But no way IWU is #2.  Probably it's Wooster then UW-Stevens Point.

Ten teams with the most appearances in the top 25
1.  Wooster 92
2.  UW-Stevens Point 85
3.  Hampden-Sydney 79
4t.  Catholic 70
4t.  Illinois Wesleyan 70
6.  Franklin & Marshall 66
7t.  Wittenberg 64 
7t.  Williams 64
9t.  Buena Vista 62
9t.  Hanover 62

Ten teams with the most appearances anywhere in the poll (top 25 + ORV):
1.  Wooster 100
2.  UW-Stevens Point 98*
3.  Wittenberg 91
4.  Hampden-Sydney 88
5.  Catholic 86
6t.  Hanover 85
6t.  Franklin & Marshall 85
8.  Buena Vista 83
9.  UW-Whitewater 82
10. Amherst 81

* One of the Pointers' two non-appearances was last week (2005-06 Week 5), which snapped a 92-poll appearance streak.

[Mr. Ypsi]

David,

You beat me to the post!

I just hand-tabulated, and only scored what I was GUESSING were the top six (I probably got 4 right, but Calvin and UW-Platteville, I must have been thinking too long ago!), but my numbers don't quite match yours (2 are the same, 2 are only off by one - don't know who is right?!)

I calculated (for actual top 25 appearances):

Wooster, 91
UWSP, 85
Hampden-Sydney, 78
IWU, 70

(I got Calvin at 46, UW-Platteville at 34.)

Since the overwhelming majority of schools have NEVER appeared in the top 25, Calvin and UW-Plateville are still rather elite, even if not AS elite as I thought they were!

[Greek Tragedy]

Is Ill. Wes. OK? Obviously NCC was pretty good, but they did lose at home.  Then a 1-pt game at Carthage and now an OT game vs. Milikin?  Wow.

[cardinalpride]

North Central is kind of an in-between case.  They have had some success, but not consistently.  The DO have a very highly respected coach.  Still, scheduling Cupcake U for nearly all the pre-conference games may not overcome those lingering doubts - they were undefeated going into Bloomington, sure, but probably 30 other schools in the country would have been as well!

First of all YPSI, you can say what you want about NCC's schedule.  Whitewater, a preseason top 15 team was in our tournament this year.  We just didn't have the opportunity to beat them because Loras took care of them first.  We then took care of Loras.  The Duhawks have since beaten another top 15 team in Wartburg just last week.  We also played Benedictine and Aurora who we play virtually every year.  Both were ranked a year ago and AU was preseason #22 this year.  NCC only beat them both by a combined 55pts.  As a matter of fact, both schools beat Wheaton this year at Wheaton!  Adrian and Franklin are usually decent teams.  Adrian is little down this year, but we beat them by 23 at their place.  Franklin beat both Wheaton and Millikin this year by 15pts apiece in Indiana.  What did NCC do to them?  They were up by as many as 25 at their place before the bench took over.  Ripon and Mt Marty are usually decent teams every year as well.  It's not NCC's fault those teams may not be playing their best baskeball this year.  Oh by the way, going into tonights NP game, the massey ratings suggest only 10 other D3 teams in the country have played a tougher schedule than NCC!  Would it make you feel better if NCC scheduled Duke or Illinois?  What do you want from the Cardinals?

[Mr. Ypsi]

CP,

Calm down, mes amis!  I had NCC 9th in the country on my ballot!  And, yes, I realize that their schedule ended up being MUCH more cupcake than they expected when they made the schedule.  You want to argue that there aren't 30 teams that would have been undefeated against that schedule?!

For Massey to rate their schedule the 10th toughest in all of d3 tells you all you need to know about Massey!  Except I suspect you misread something.  While I have issues with Massey, I can't believe they would screw up THAT badly.  In retrospect, the schedule NCC MADE was not that bad, but the schedule they PLAYED was weak, to be kind.

To date, you have exactly ONE impressive win (and those of us with ties to Bloomington are painfully aware of where that occurred!) - you MAY be the best team in the country, or you may be the 40th and got lucky.  I'd prefer a bit more data one way or the other!

I have to get up to teach in less than 4 hours (where HAS the time gone?!), so good night!