Top 25 talk

[John Gleich]

"Witt losing at home to Bald-Wally" (which is a nickname I've never heard, BTW).

That is a typo... I meant Woo.  I'd go back and change what I wrote, but I assume that people who would read my post will read yours as well, so it would be pointless.

And I came up with "Bald-Wally" all by my lonesome, sitting right here at my computer!    I like calling schools by shortened versions of their name... 'cause I think it sounds cool... maybe this will catch on!

[Mr. Ypsi]

David,

Augie beat NCC at home, then IWU in Bloomington, then Elmhurst in Elmhurst, in three consecutive games.

Could Witt, Woo, Lawrence, Hope, Albion, etc., have done that streak?  Obviously we will never know, but my personal answer is NO.  With no disrespect intended whatsoever to the previously named teams, that is why I am putting Augie at the top of my Posters' Poll ballot.

Likewise, Elmhurst will be on my ballot somewhere, because I just don't think anyone in the bottom half of the top 25 has anywhere near their overall resume - nevermind their six losses!

[sac]

Mr Y--I believe Hope could have!

[sac]

Since we're lobbying for Augie I'll lobby against it

Augie has had a fast rise in the polls the last two weeks.  They are slowly gaining attention as a top 5 team.  I don't think you move a team from out of the top 10 to #1 in 2 weeks unless a whole boatload of top 10 teams lose and that doesn't happen.

Augie is getting plenty of respect in the polls right now..........which I'll again remind people are a collection of individual opinons.

I'm with Pat, lets wait and see how next Saturday shakes out......the current top 6 did nothing this week to lose a place in the poll.

[smedindy]

Likewise, Elmhurst will be on my ballot somewhere, because I just don't think anyone in the bottom half of the top 25 has anywhere near their overall resume - nevermind their six losses!

Have you dared to look outside that box and look at other teams that may be ignored?? The gamut of teams needs examining, not just the allegedly sacrosanct top 25.

[Pat Coleman]

I'm with Pat, lets wait and see how next Saturday shakes out......the current top 6 did nothing this week to lose a place in the poll.

Aside from IWU, you mean, I assume.

[sac]

ooooh yes of course Pat.......I was thinking about my top 6.

[David Collinge]

David,

Augie beat NCC at home, then IWU in Bloomington, then Elmhurst in Elmhurst, in three consecutive games.

Could Witt, Woo, Lawrence, Hope, Albion, etc., have done that streak?  Obviously we will never know, but my personal answer is NO. 

I agree that we will never know, so with that caveat my personal answer would be YES.  If I were voting, I'd answer that hypothetical question YES for anyone I think should be ranked ahead of Augustana, which at a minimum includes Wittenberg and Wooster.  More to the point, I'd favor Witt and Woo over Augie in a neutral court game, which I think is the essence of ranking teams.

[Mr. Ypsi]

smed,

Yes, and I still don't see anyone.

sac,

Like I said, I can't prove it, but I have my doubts about Hope pulling off the trifecta.

Pat,

Since you knew he was directly addressing me, that was just cruel!  

I'm STILL convinced that man-for-man IWU has the most talented team in the country.  I have no clue what is going wrong.  My heart still says they will win it all in Salem; my head says if they don't turn it around REAL quick they won't ever get the chance to show it.

[cardinalpride]

Augie has had a great start to the season, and deserves to be ranked very highly (although, frankly, I have to wonder how overrated North Central and, especially, IWU are).   But I don't think they merit a ranking ahead of Wittenberg or Wooster at this point.

DC, North Central is not overrated.  They play in a tough league unlike Witt and Woo.  The three losses NCC have are by a grand total of 10pts.  Two of them being on the road.  The other being an overtime loss at home.  In all three losses, NCC held the lead all but the last 2 min of each game.  NCC was ahead of Augie by 3 with 1:51 remaining when a bad call by an official fouled out its point guard and best perimeter defender.  Rick Harrigan (augie's best player) scored eight of the final 9pts of the game during that span.  The NCC's pg that fouled out was defending him and was doing a fairly decent job.  NCC loses at Millikin by 1 due to bad ft shooting down the stretch.  The elmhurst loss in overtime was due to elmhurst having a great night.  Offensively, they hit just about everything and got career nights from 2 players that normally are not scorers for them.  NCC could easily be undefeated right now at 18-0.  I'm convinced NCC could beat any of the top teams in the country.  As far as IWU is concerned, I've only seened them once this year so I can't argue on their behalf.  However, There is no rest in the CCIW.  Every night is a grind and I believe IWU's losses are a direct result of the strength of the league.  Their only losses are to the other top three teams in the league NCC, Augie, and Elmhurst.  All are top 25 teams in my opinion.  

[sac]

Like I said, I can't prove it, but I have my doubts about Hope pulling off the trifecta.

Well I can't prove it either.  So I guess we're stuck.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I saw Lawrence play at Grinnell this week, and while it's not a traditional game, the Vikings were so impressive.  Their defense was incredible and their ballhandling and composure of every player on the bench was awesome.  The coach does annoy me, even though I recognize how truly good he is.  I didn't think they could do much to improve in the second half and he came out with some adjustments that made the game much easier for them.  Very solid team.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

1.   Witt (18-1, 9-1), wins over Wabash and at Denison
2.   Woo (18-1, 10-0) wins at Kenyon and over Ealrham
3.   Larry (16-0, 10-0) wins at Monmouth and at Grinnell
4.   Hope (18-1, 7-1) wins at Tri-State and at Kalamazoo
5.   IWU (15-3, 5-3) home loss to #7 Augustana, home win over Carthage
6.   Albion (16-2, 7-1) wins at Olivet and over Adrian
7.   Augustana (18-1, 8-0) wins at #5 IWU and at Elmhurst
8.   Baldwin-Wallace (17-2, 11-1) wins over JCU and at Marietta
9.   York (16-2, 6-2) wins at Galludet and over Salisbury
10. Amherst (16-2, 4-1) wins at Babson and over Colby and Bowdoin
11. North Central (15-3, 4-3) home loss to Elmhurst, win at Wheaton
12. Puget Sound (15-3, 9-1) wins over Lewis & Clark and Pacific
13. Wartburg (17-2, 10-1) wins at Central and over Dubuque and Simpson
14. CMU (15-3, 5-2) loss at Chicago, win at WashU
15. WPI (17-1, 7-1) wins at Clark and at home over Babson
16. Occidental (15-1, 6-0) wins over Mudd-Scripps and P-P
17. Miss Coll (17-1, 14-1) wins at Louisiana Coll, and over Austin and U of the Ozarks
18. R-MC (17-4, 12-2) home win over Lynchburg, loss at Emory & Henry and a win at Guilford
19. Stout (15-4, 8-3) wins over Eau-Claire and at Whitewater
20. Transy (16-, 7-1) wins at Franklin and at Anderson
21. Oshkosh (15-5, 8-3) win over Stevens Point, loss at River Falls
22. St. John Fisher (15-3, 6-1) wins over Alfred, and at Elmira and Ithaca
23. VA Wesleyan (18-3, 13-1) wins at Guilford and Emory & Henry
24. Lincoln (18-4) Idle this week.
25. Carroll (15-2, 9-1) home win over Ripon, wins at Grinnell and Illinois College

[Titan Q]

The new poll is out...

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/

I guess my thoughts on Elmhurst being a team that should be in the Top 25 are based on how well they have played against ranked teams, even though they lost 4 of the games...

vs #4 Hope - lost at Hope by 17, but it was a tie game at 9:33 to play and a 5 pt game at 5:30

vs #5 Augustana - lost by 3 at Augie, lost by 3 at home

vs #6 Albion - lost on road by 8, but it was 65-64 with 2:29 to play

vs #8 Illinois Wesleyan - won at home by 8

vs #14 North Central - won on road by 3


I'd argue that if the poll is "right", teams 20-25 would have about a 1-5 record in the games listed above.  Should team #20 win @ #4 Hope?  Or on the road/at home vs #5 Augustana?  Or @ #6 Albion?  Or vs #8 Illinois Wesleyan?  Or @ #14 North Central?  I think the 20th ranked team could play well and go 1-5 there.  Heck, #20 could play great and go 0-6 for that matter.  So then I look at how close the game were, and Elmhurst was right in every one in the final minutes except Hope...and that game was a lot closer than the 17-point margin indicates.  To me, I think there is a lot of evidence there to suggest that the Bluejays can play with some of the nation's top teams.

Regarding EC's two losses to non-ranked teams, I guess I do not believe losing at UW-Platteville by 1 on 2 FT's with :01 to play is a bad loss.  That brings me to the home loss to Millikin being their only "bad loss."  In addition to the fact that Millikin has proven they can play with good teams on certain nights (Millikin took IWU to OT and beat North Central), I guess I just feel that almost every team is going to have at least one "head scratcher" type game.   Wooster went to OT vs Earlham...Wittenberg was only up 2 pts at Allegheny with :36 to play...Albion lost at home to Calvin, etc. 

St. John Fisher (15-3) is ranked #21 with wins over Delaware Valley, Hobart, Fredonia St, Geneseo St (twice), Lake Erie, Cazenovia, Utica, Hartwick, Brockport St, Rochester, Rochester Tech, Alfred, Elmira, and Ithaca.  Losses are to #7 Baldwin-Wallace (n), at Randolph-Macon, and at home to 6-12 Nazareth.  Two questions.  What would St. John Fisher's record be with Elmhurst's schedule and would they be ranked?  What would Elmhurst's record be with St. John Fisher's schedule and how high would they be ranked?

I look at Elmhurst's complete body of work, including how the losses played out, and I see them as a Top 25 team.  I concede that my opinion is affected by having seen the Bluejays play -- this is a team with one of the top players in NCAA Division III (Chris Martin), a really good 6-10 post player (Nick Michael), and a lot of solid role players around them.   They're a good team.

[David Collinge]

Milestones in the Week 9 poll:

All-time highest ranking for:
#5 Augustana
#7 Baldwin-Wallace
#12 Occidental
#19 Transylvania
#23 Carroll

UW-Stevens Point receives no points; only the 3rd time in 103 polls that this has happened (the others being week 5 of this season and week 5 of 1999-00).

#8 Illinois Wesleyan is in the top 10 for the 38th time, tying conference foe Carthage for #7 on the all-time list in this category.  The Titans can catch 6th-place Washington U. next week with their 39th top 10 week.  #1 Wittenberg is in the top 10 for the 26th time, tying them for 15th with Buena Vista.

Congratulations to these great programs on their achievements.