Top 25 talk

[gordonmann]

I have Elmhurst on my ballot but I still don't have a problem with the Jays not being in the Top 25.

Elmhurst has had cracks at good teams outside their conference and come up short.  Losing to Millikin (who just got swept by North Park) doesn't help nor does losing to Platteville.  No matter how it happened, Platteville is 9-9.

I agree with Q that each team should be allowed a "head scratcher" or two, like Albion-Calvin or Witt-Allegheny.  But I also like to see teams beat quality opponents out of conference which Albion (B-W) and Witt (ONU) have done.

This isn't intended as a knock on the CCIW.  I've been pretty high on their teams all year.  IWU has been in my Top 10 all year.  I've had three teams in the Top 15 for a while now.  And I added a fourth (Elmhurst) this week. 

Then again I was high on the CCIW teams last year, too, when they went 0-2 in the tournament.  Tough opponents or not, home or away, at some point the CCIW teams need to beat ranked teams other than each other if they are the premier conference in D3.  Beyond IWU-UPS there isn't much else to point to since early last season.

[David Collinge]

As a follow-up to Gordon's post, I thought I'd take a look at out-of-conference wins by top 25 teams over other top 25 teams:

#1 Wittenberg: defeated #19 Transylvania 62-51 (at Transylvania)
#2 Wooster: defeated #17 UW-Stout 90-82 (at Wooster)
#3 Lawrence: defeated #24 UW-Oshkosh 82-75 (OT) (at Lawrence)
#4 Hope: none
#5 Augustana: none
#6 Albion: defeated #7 Baldwin-Wallace 75-72 (at Allegheny/neutral site)
#7 Baldwin-Wallace: defeated #2 Wooster 113-108 (2 OT) (at Wooster); defeated #21 St. John Fisher 88-79 (at Westminster Pa./neutral site)
#8 Illinois Wesleyan: defeated #13 Puget Sound 104-87 (at Westmont/neutral site)
#9 York (Pa.): none
#10 Amherst: none
#11 Wartburg: defeated #24 UW-Oshkosh 65-57 (at Las Vegas/neutral site)
#12 Occidental: defeated #10 Amherst 73-68 (at Occidental)
#13 Puget Sound: none
#14 North Central: none
#15 WPI: none
#16 Mississippi College: none
#17 UW-Stout: defeated #5 Augustana 70-66 (at Stout)
#18 Carnegie Mellon: none
#19 Transylvania: none
#20 Virginia Wesleyan: none
#21 St. John Fisher: none
#22 Lincoln: none
#23 Carroll: none
#24 UW-Oshkosh: defeated #23 Carroll 70-69 (at Carroll)
#25 Trinity (Ct): none

I hope I haven't missed any.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Had some time to kill, and was curious what schools have top teams in BOTH men's and women's bball.

Only three schools had top 25 teams on both polls, and they were in the same order on both:  Hope (4th men, 7th women, an astonishing 1012 points out of 1250 for the two polls combined), Baldwin-Wallace (7th men, 8th women, a highly respectable 2nd place finish with 883 points), and Mississippi College (16th in each poll).

Five school had ranked men's teams, and women's teams good enough to receive votes: Lawrence (3rd men, 14 votes women), IWU (8th men, 1 vote women), Puget Sound (13th men, 16 votes women), Carroll (23rd men, 4 votes women), and UW-Oshkosh (24th men, 18 votes women).

Four schools had ranked women's teams, and men's teams good enough to receive votes: NYU (12th women, 19 votes men), Randolph-Macon (13th women, 50 votes men), Calvin (14th women, 27 votes men), and Rochester (24th women, 10 votes men).

Finally, two schools were unranked in either, but received votes in both: Bates (8 votes men, 27 votes women) and UW-LaCrosse (1 vote men, 12 votes women).

Apologies in advance if I missed anyone.  Congrats to all (especially Hope and B-W).

[JMW1973]

Cortland goes 2-0 and LOSES a vote. What are these pollsters thinking?

[smedindy]

They're thinking a two point home win against Buffalo State isn't impressive - compared to what other teams may have done. Dropping from 2 to 1 point isn't like the end of the world.

[Pat Coleman]

Cortland goes 2-0 and LOSES a vote. What are these pollsters thinking?

I believe they're thinking, damn, this Elmhurst team is pretty good, they should be ahead of Cortland State.

You can't look at the poll in isolation. You have to look at what all the other teams did, too.

[bamm]

St. John Fisher (15-3) is ranked #21 with wins over Delaware Valley, Hobart, Fredonia St, Geneseo St (twice), Lake Erie, Cazenovia, Utica, Hartwick, Brockport St, Rochester, Rochester Tech, Alfred, Elmira, and Ithaca.  Losses are to #7 Baldwin-Wallace (n), at Randolph-Macon, and at home to 6-12 Nazareth.  Two questions.  What would St. John Fisher's record be with Elmhurst's schedule and would they be ranked?  What would Elmhurst's record be with St. John Fisher's schedule and how high would they be ranked?

General consensus on the Fisher/RMC game (@ RMC) was that Fisher was easily as good as RMC and could and/or should have pulled that game out.  They didn't, too bad.  A close-game loss on a neutral court to #7 Baldwin-Wallace is also not something a team should be ashamed of.   I personally think that team is right where they belong in the poll -- they're not an elite national team, but they are a good team that will be able to compete with almost anyone in the country.

Now if you want to talk about an East team that shouldn't be getting votes... 12-6 Rochester is up for discussion after getting absolutely blown out at Chicago yesterday.

[Coach C]

I think that many of the pollsters are thinking "Gee there are about 25  or 30 teams better than Cortland.  At least"

C

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Cortland has an awful schedule and they lost twice.  Fisher took forever to get repsect last year with an undefeated run through a similar schedule.  I think they are about where they need to be.

[devossed]

I think the 20th ranked team could play well and go 1-5 there.  Heck, #20 could play great and go 0-6 for that matter...To me, I think there is a lot of evidence there to suggest that the Bluejays can play with some of the nation's top teams.

They could go 0-6 and shouldn't drop far at all, but unfortunately we're stuck with the subjectivity of human pollsters who wouldn't see that. I agree and think they can play with any top teams (look at the closeness of the games you pointed out) and do think they'll be a tough nut to crack come tourney time.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The same thing happens in the WIAC.  There are a bunch of teams in the 18-30 range that would struggle to win four games in the WIAC, but we have to discount some of these teams because they beat up on each other.  It's exactly the reason so many of the WIAC teams are getting votes.

[Greek Tragedy]

The same thing happens in the WIAC.  There are a bunch of teams in the 18-30 range that would struggle to win four games in the WIAC, but we have to discount some of these teams because they beat up on each other.  It's exactly the reason so many of the WIAC teams are getting votes.

River Falls is a stellar 5-14 on the season and just 4-7 in conference yet, they did something Augustana couldn't do...go into Menomonie and beat Stout!  River Falls also just upset Oshkosh at Karges after Oshkosh came in winning 12 of 13, or something like that.  The top four teams have 3 losses and La Crosse is just a game back in the loss column. 

Just curious if anyone wants to look this up...the WIAC has five of their nine teams within ONE game of 1st place. 

How do the other conferences compare?  Just curious.

[Rhodes Scholar]

The same thing happens in the WIAC.  There are a bunch of teams in the 18-30 range that would struggle to win four games in the WIAC, but we have to discount some of these teams because they beat up on each other.  It's exactly the reason so many of the WIAC teams are getting votes.

River Falls is a stellar 5-14 on the season and just 4-7 in conference yet, they did something Augustana couldn't do...go into Menomonie and beat Stout!  River Falls also just upset Oshkosh at Karges after Oshkosh came in winning 12 of 13, or something like that.  The top four teams have 3 losses and La Crosse is just a game back in the loss column. 

Just curious if anyone wants to look this up...the WIAC has five of their nine teams within ONE game of 1st place. 

How do the other conferences compare?  Just curious.

The NJAC has three teams tied for first with 8-4 records, followed by three teams with 7-5 marks, followed by three more teams who are 5-7.

[Pat Coleman]

The same thing happens in the WIAC.  There are a bunch of teams in the 18-30 range that would struggle to win four games in the WIAC, but we have to discount some of these teams because they beat up on each other.  It's exactly the reason so many of the WIAC teams are getting votes.

River Falls is a stellar 5-14 on the season and just 4-7 in conference yet, they did something Augustana couldn't do...go into Menomonie and beat Stout!  River Falls also just upset Oshkosh at Karges after Oshkosh came in winning 12 of 13, or something like that.  The top four teams have 3 losses and La Crosse is just a game back in the loss column. 

Just curious if anyone wants to look this up...the WIAC has five of their nine teams within ONE game of 1st place. 

How do the other conferences compare?  Just curious.

Six teams in the NJAC within a game of first place.

River Falls has the benefit of familiarity with Stout, a short trip to Menomonie and the chance that Stout was overlooking them. Stout wasn't overlooking Augustana, I'm sure, since they were in the Top 20.

[Knightstalker]

Nine of the ten NJAC teams are still alive for one of the six playoff spots in the conference.