Top 25 talk

[Pat Coleman]

Not for men. Claremont-Mudd-Scripps needs one win or one Occidental loss.

Tomorrow the ODAC will award the first men's tournament bid.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

In Gordon's defense, they aren't used to the travel to Georgia and Emory started playing pretty well right after that.  I would put Gordon #3 or #4 in the NE right now.  However, I also don't believe #3 or #4 in the NE deserves to be in the Top 25.  So there you have it.

[Knightstalker]

In Gordon's defense, they aren't used to the travel to Georgia and Emory started playing pretty well right after that.  I would put Gordon #3 or #4 in the NE right now.  However, I also don't believe #3 or #4 in the NE deserves to be in the Top 25.  So there you have it.

Which in the overall scheme of things is still pretty damn good.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Here is goes:

1.   Wooster (23-2, 15-1) win over Kenyon, loss at Ohio Wesleyan
2.   Lawrence (22-0, 16-0) wins at #14 Carroll and over St. Norbert
3.   Baldwin-Wallace (21-4, 15-3) loss to Ohio Northern and loss at Capital
4.   Wittenberg (22-3, 13-3) loss at Wabash, win over Allegheny
5.   Hope (23-2, 12-2) wins over Alma and Tri-State
6.   York (23-2, 12-2) wins over Galludet and at Mary Washington
7.   Amherst (23-2, 8-1) win over Connecticut College
8.   Albion (19-5, 10-4) loss at #19 Calvin, win over Olivet
9.   Augustana (21-4, 11-3) win over #10 IWU, loss at #21 North Central
10. IWU (19-5, 9-5) loss at #9 Augustana, win over North Park
11. Mississippi College (24-1, 21-1) wins over Louisiana College, at TX-Dallas and at TX-Tyler
12. VA Wesleyan (24-3, 17-1) wins over E Mennonite (twice) and Guilford
13. Stout (19-5, 12-4) win at LaCrosse
14. Carroll (20-3, 14-2) loss to #2 Lawrence, win at Beloit
15. Occidental (18-4, 9-3) loss to Redlands and a loss to CMS
16. St. John Fisher (22-3, 13-1) wins at Nazareth and Rochester Tech
17. Puget Sound (20-4, 14-2) wins over Willamette and Linfield
18. Lincoln (20-4) idle
19. Calvin (20-5, 13-1) wins over #8 Albion and Kalamazoo
20. Carnegie Mellon (19-5, 9-4) loss at Emory, win over Case Western Reserve
21. North Central (20-5, 9-5) wins at #25 Elmhurst and over #9 Augustana
22. Wartburg (19-5, 12-4) loss at Buena Vista and a win over Cornell
23. Transylvania (21-4, 12-2) wins over Franklin or Defiance
24. Whitewater (19-5, 13-3) wins at Oshkosh and Eau Claire
25. Elmhurst (17-8, 9-5) loss to #21 North Central, win at Wheaton

[digs]

How far do you think Oxy will drop?   I could see them falling out of the top 25 with the 2 conference losses.  The SCIAC does not have much of a reputation so the voters will likely look at these losses less favorably than say Wartburg's loss to BV or Carnegia Mellon to Emory.  Rightly or wrongly it seems that if you take a loss in a non-major conference it seems to have a greater impact than losses in the so called power conferences (even if those losses are to a bottom half team--see losses to Wheaton in the CCIW).

[Pat Coleman]

I think they are going to be out of the Top 25, yes.

Reputation, shmemputation -- if Wartburg or CMU lost at home to a sub-.500 team they would plummet too. The UAA and IIAC are not considered power conferences (although the UAA might be able to make that claim this year).

[digs]

Pat,  I don't disagree, but Wheaton lost to Redlands and yet when a CCIW school loses to Wheaton they don't get a big knock on their votes.  Transitive theory I know.  I believe that Oxy should drop out, but also think that they will never get the benefit of the doubt that a power conference school will get.  Over the years voters tend to be right more than not, but conference wins are tough in any conference and the expectation that you need to be nearly undefeated in some conferences to gain national recognition is tough to acheive no matter what the level of the conference plays at.  The bottom feeders in every conference get up for the game against the "big dog" so the intensity is high for every game for these so called "big dogs" and they are bound to slip up along the road.

Also note that Augie lost to 2 under .500 teams last week, on the road however, and dropped 6 spots and 171 points.  Oxy would drop 10+ spots and 173 points (241-68, highest total of next vote getter) if they drop out of the poll. 

Again I doubt they deserve to be in the top 25 after their performance last week, but am just pointing out why some "West Coast Whiners" might complain.

[smedindy]

I think Augie has a better 'rep' - and except for North Park the CCIW is a pretty stout conference top to bottom, whilst the SCIAC is sketchy in the middle.

The Massey SOS ratings for Oxy also bring it to light.

[digs]

I think Augie has a better 'rep' - and except for North Park the CCIW is a pretty stout conference top to bottom, whilst the SCIAC is sketchy in the middle.

The Massey SOS ratings for Oxy also bring it to light.

And yet the only quailty non-conference win for either Wheaton or Millikin is Wheaton's win over the U of Chicago-hardly a powerhouse this year.  I would call those team's non-conference results more sketchy than stout this year.  (Sorry April.)

[smedindy]

However, Oxy's SOS is 209,  whilst Wheaton is 10 and Millikin is 50.  Millikin did play some pushovers, but they really whaled on them.

Oxy did beat Amherst, but beating up on La Sierra twice isn't going to help them, at all.  And the body of work of Cal Lutheran, Whittier, Redlands and LaVerne can't really matchup with the CCIW middle of the road teams.

[Pat Coleman]

Pat,  I don't disagree, but Wheaton lost to Redlands and yet when a CCIW school loses to Wheaton they don't get a big knock on their votes.  Transitive theory I know. 

Not just the transitive theory, but connecting together games played six weeks apart. If you look at the Wheaton lineup in terms of age and starting experience, you would know there is reason to expect them to get better.

Our voters know this because we got preseason info from Wheaton, since they were a Top 25 team last year.

[Pat Coleman]

... am just pointing out why some "West Coast Whiners" might complain.

The whiners are wearing thin on me. I got a phone call and three e-mails in the past week from West Coast residents asking why their teams weren't on the front page after beating Occidental.

THEY WERE ON THE FRONT PAGE!

[digs]

I am just saying that the mid level CCIW schools did not beat anybody of significance in their non-conference schedule just like the mid level SCIAC teams did not have any significant non-conference wins.  

And my other point was that no matter what conference you are in a low to mid level team is going to get a few wins that they shouldn't get and a top team is going to get knocked off a time or two.  I feel this is a natural fact.  It just seems to hurt the teams from the "weaker" conferences the most.  In the CCIW those losses are thrown out because it is a "tough conference you are bound to lose a few" but that doesn't go for other conferences.

As far as SOS -- that ultimately means nothing about the actual team only about the teams they played.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I guess the only solution is to add an opponents-opponents category into the factors.  Wait, I sure hope those rumors are true or else this will not have the desired satirical effect.

[smedindy]

Well, look at the NCAC. Witt and Wooster lost games recently, but they were to Wabash and Ohio Wesleyan, pretty decent teams.

Last year, Witt got beat by Denison, and that hurt them in the polls, big time, for a while.

Had any of the top CCIW teams lost to North Park, then they'd plummet.

Had Oxy lost early in the season, they'd have time to recover. I'm interested in seeing where B-W is in the polls. I knocked them down in my ballott into the mid-teens, but in my heart I know they're a top 10 team. Some may still vote them that way.