Top 25 talk

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

What the heck happened last night?  Was there some crazy alignment of planets or something?

Wheaton loses to Big-Ten Northwestern and it turns out to be an upset after Wheaton leads most of the game?  Penn-State Altoona beats Lincoln in some sort of karmic backlash?  Gordon gets beat by 17 at Husson?  Luckily Rutgers-Camden lost or we might have collapsed the universe.

[Titan Q]

Chicago Tribune article...

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/northwestern/cs-061214nugamer,1,5559401.story?coll=cs-college-headlines


Northwestern has a win over DePaul...DePaul beat Kansas.  A Thunder "W" would have done some fun things for all opponents that beat Wheaton as the season plays out. 

Oh well.

[Mr. Ypsi]

And OH what might have been!  One more 3-pointer would have done it, and Wheaton shot a woeful 3-18 from the arc.  I've asked elsewhere when the last time Kent Raymond went 0-6 from 3-land, but so far no reply - I'll hazard a guess of 'never'!

[Titan Q]

And OH what might have been!  One more 3-pointer would have done it, and Wheaton shot a woeful 3-18 from the arc.  I've asked elsewhere when the last time Kent Raymond went 0-6 from 3-land, but so far no reply - I'll hazard a guess of 'never'!

Getting good 3-point looks is very difficult against a good Division I team.  One of the biggest differences between Division I and Division III is the quickness at the guard spots.  I'd guess that is most of the reason for Wheaton's 3-18 3-pt shooting and point-guard Kent Raymond's 2 assits to 8 turnovers.

Here is the boxscore from IWU's exhibition vs U. of Illinois last year:

http://www.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2006/ill-iwu.htm

The Titans were 6-18 from beyond the arc and there just were not many clean looks vs Dee Brown, Rich McBride, Brian Randle, and the Illini's other perimeter defenders.

Earlier this year, Wash U was 3-21 from 3 vs Southern Illinois, a really good Missouri Valley team that plays nasty defense.  The D3 Bears had 3 assists and 25 turnovers.

http://siusalukis.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2006-2007/siu1.html

Versus Division III teams this year Wash U is shooting .436 from 3 and has a team A:T.O ratio of 1.7. 


It is just a lot different when you are playing against that caliber athlete.  For all of us who speculate if the Korey Coon's, Ryan Knuppel's, and Rick Harrigan's of Division III - to use a few former CCIW All-American shooters as examples - could have played Division I, you have to consider how differently they'd be defended at that level.  It is a lot harder to a) get open and, b) get a shot off.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

That sounds like the laying down of a gauntlet to me, so here it goes:

Raymond hasn't shot less than 50% from three since the Benedictine game where he went 0-4.  That's four games in a row with him shooting 6-8, 4-8, 3-6 and 2-2.

You have your last 0-fer listed there.  He was 2-10 in the loss to Whitworth, which was an off shooting night for him, but going back to the 04-05 season Raymond has never had a game where he took more than 4 shots without making one.

There have only been six games in his career that ended without Raymond hitting a three, two 0-4, two 0-1 and an 0-0.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Thanks for he research, Hoops! +k to you.

Q, While I grasp the point you are making (and mostly agree), note that IWU went SIX of 18.  If Wheaton could have just gone FOUR for 18 (and I doubt the NU backcourt contained a Dee Brown), ESPN and papers across the country would probably have had their lead story!  Oh, what might have been!

While the game, of course, doesn't even exist for pool C purposes, I'm guessing it will mean a LOT on the coming poll.

[Titan Q]

A few photos from the IWU/Illinois exhibition that help illustrate my point about perimeter defense vs DI...

http://www.iwuhoops.com/illinif.jpg

http://www.iwuhoops.com/illinim.jpg

http://www.iwuhoops.com/illiniad.jpg


In that third photo, note that Dee Brown is guarding Adam Dauksas one-on-one 3 feet across halfcourt.  And in the first two, the way the Illini defenders "sit down" and guard...and they of course are quick enough to move laterally when you dribble.  You're just not going to see that type of pressure vs most D3 teams.

[Gregory Sager]

Q, While I grasp the point you are making (and mostly agree), note that IWU went SIX of 18.  If Wheaton could have just gone FOUR for 18 (and I doubt the NU backcourt contained a Dee Brown), ESPN and papers across the country would probably have had their lead story!

NU doesn't have a Dee Brown, but the Wildcats aren't a bunch of plodding plowhorses, either. Bill Carmody's style is predicated upon his team's ability to hold down the other team's score with intense defense. No D1 school has scored more than 63 points against them in regulation -- and the Wildcats held a very respectable DePaul team to a mere 39.

Note what Bob said in CCIW Chat about how NU denied Kent Raymond the ball in that final 17-second sequence. That's a very, very difficult thing to do for a D3 team; Raymond is such a good player on our level that it's extremely unlikely that any one player can guard him so thoroughly as to keep the ball out of his hands for that long if Bill Harris is running a play for his sophomore star. As Bob said, it's the quickness of D1 guards that makes it possible for them to do things like deny Raymond the ball when the game is on the line. The fact that Wheaton's guards turned the ball over eleven times (they average seven), including eight by Raymond alone, should tell you something about the Wildcats backcourt. Don't sell NU short with regard to guard quickness.

(NU's forwards, on the other hand, appear to be another story entirely.)

Sac made an excellent point, though, about Carmody's style. While it's conducive to keeping Northwestern in the game against better D1 opponents, it also serves to give really good small-school teams a better chance to upset them.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I believe technically they didn't deny him the ball, they just didn't start the clock when he got the ball so it had to be inbounded again, after which time he was indeed contained.

[David Collinge]

Top 25 scores, week of Dec. 11-17 (watch for updates):

#1 Wooster (7-0) def. Cedarville 104-95
#2 Amherst (8-0) won at Worcester St. 70-42
#3 Virginia Wesleyan (6-1) won at Newport News Apprentice 85-67
#4 St. Thomas (6-0) is idle
#5 UW-Stevens Point (9-0) won at Viterbo 75-49
#6 Wittenberg (6-1) is idle
#7 Ohio Northern (6-1) won at Mt. Union 64-51
#8 Whitworth (10-0) is idle (until Jan. 2)
#9 Lawrence (4-1) lost to #25 Carthage 93-86 (2OT)
#10 Augustana (7-1) won at Cornell 64-60 and hosts Wartburg Sun.
#11 William Paterson (8-1) won at FDU-Florham 70-57 (and lost at Seton Hall 83-56 in an exhibition)
#12 Mississippi College (5-1) def. Schreiner 83-69
#13 UW-Platteville (6-1) lost at RMC-Springfield 82-74
#14 Johns Hopkins (9-0) is idle (until Dec. 29)
#15 Averett (8-0) def. Newport News Apprentice 85-68 (and had a game at So. Virginia cancelled)
#16 Bates (8-0) is idle (until Jan. 5)
#17 Puget Sound (6-1) won at La Verne 114-104
#18 Lincoln (5-3) lost at PSU-Altoona 95-86
#19 Aurora (6-0) lost at Edgewood 68-65
#20 Wheaton (Ill.) (5-3) lost at Northwestern (Ill.) 41-39
#21 UW-La Crosse (6-3) lost at Carleton 75-64 (OT)
#22 Hope (4-2) won at Aquinas 65-62
#23 Chicago (6-1) won at Illinois Wesleyan 64-60
#24 DePauw (6-1) hosts Illinois Tech Sun.
#25 Carthage (5-1) won at #9 Lawrence 93-86 (2OT)

**UPDATED** for Saturday's final scores (including Puget Sound/La Verne)

[wooscotsfan]

Final:  #1 Wooster 104  Cedarville 95

Wooster went on a 28-12 run to start the 2nd half and take control of this game.  This was a nice win over a solid 9-1 NAIA squad, ranked #9 nationally in NAIA Division II.    

Wooster was led tonight by Tom Port with 29 points, James Cooper with 23 points, Tim Vandervaart with 19 points and Devin Fulk with 12 points

Wooster is now 8-0.   Next game is at Pomona Pitzer (CA) on Monday.

GO SCOTS!

[Titan Q]

Having seen Wash U, #23 Chicago, and #24 DePauw, I think Wash U is underrated in the current D3hoops.com Top 25.  I'm pretty sure Wash U is the best of the three. 

If UW-Whitewater start clicking, I'd rank them ahead Wash U, Chicago, and DePauw...I think the Warhawks are more talented.

[Greek Tragedy]

If UW-Whitewater start clicking, I'd rank them ahead Wash U, Chicago, and DePauw...I think the Warhawks are more talented.

Talent only gets you so far!   This year's Point team is hardly the most talented team in the WIAC, but they might be the best TEAM.  With apologies to the rest of the Championship teams in 2004 and 2005, aside from Jason Kalsow and Nick Bennett, Point probably didn't have the most talent either. 

[zonescantstopme]

How far out did Lincoln fall with those two losses, with them being independant does that hurt their NCAA chances

[Ralph Turner]

How far out did Lincoln fall with those two losses, with them being independant does that hurt their NCAA chances

Lincoln will fall out to the Top 25, and their Pool B chances got more tenuous.

See the Pool B board.  IMHO, Lincoln is now on the Pool B bubble, but I will start my Pool B speculations in January.

Remember there are only 3 Pool B bids this year to spread around the NAthCon, the Pres AC, Maryville and the GSAC, Chapman, Lincoln, UDallas, etc.