Top 25 talk

[Ralph Turner]

Just posted on the UMHB website...

UMHB 63 Va Wes 62

I thought JHU was overrated and wasn't ready to make much of the Choctaws' win.  But there's no downplaying this one.  Very big one for the ASC.

Gordon, the ASC has always been one of those conferences where the teams are so close in talent that they beat each other up and then don't get the notice nationally.

I said the other night that I thought that the ASC-West has four teams that can compete in the Top 40-60 range and 6 in the Top 60 on both sides, but we are usually "going to their place" and so we lose.

I want to see UT-Dallas at D-1 UT-Arlington on the stage (literally at Texas Hall in Arlington) tomorrow night.  Yes, the court is actually on the stage!

[Titan Q]

My Dec. 19 ballot was:

1 Wooster
2 Virginia Wesleyan
3 St. Thomas
4 UW-Stevens Point
5 Amherst
6 Mississippi College
7 Whitworth
8 Wittenberg
9 Ohio Northern


This is where it gets tricky as a voter.  Sometimes it is hard to talk yourself into moving a team up 6-9 spots from one ballot to the next, but I have always been inclined to make a large "correction" when I feel it is warranted. 

In this case, ONU defeated Wittenberg soundly at home (won by 17, led by double digits the final 10:00) and won on the road at Wooster.  The win at Wooster is very impressive to me -- Timken is one of the great venues in Division III and this Wooster team is a national title contender.  Considering these wins and what has happened above them on my ballot, I am probably with Pat in making my #1 decision between UW-Stevens Point and Ohio Northern, assuming UW-SP beats Augustana, which they should.  (ONU's 17 point loss at home to Baldwin-Wallace remains a head scratcher to me, and the reason I had them down to #9, but sometimes you just have to erase a team's worst game and give 'em a mulligan.)  UW-SP's loss to a good D2 team is a non-factor to me.

[Titan Q]

I have posted before that I'm struggling to evaluate Amherst.  I cannot move them into the #1 slot until they play a couple more tough opponents (the home win over Brandeis was good).  I don't think a win at this year's 5-5 Trinity (Tx) team will mean too much to me. 

UW-Whitewater was rated #4 in the preaseason poll.  They are now 6-4 with narrow losses to Illinois Wesleyan, UW-La Crosse, UW-Stevens Point, and Elmhurst.  Now let's say instead of playing that schedule so far, UW-Whitewater had played:

vs. New York City Tech     
vs. Thomas
at Emmanuel     
vs. Western New England
vs. Springfield 
at MIT
vs. Brandeis     
at Worcester State   

My guess is that UW-Whitewater would be undefeated and in the discussion for who is moving to #1 Tuesday.  Same players, same team...just a different schedule.  And the difference between being ranked #1 and the third from last "receiving votes" team.  Conversely, what would Amherst's record, and ranking, be with UW-Whitewater's schedule?

As a voter, I love the teams that play good schedules because even losses can help validate their positioning in the poll.

[John Gleich]

Nicely analyzed Q.  I'm just wondering if the other voters will see the same picture for Amherst as you, especially because they were voted in as second (with three first place votes already).  They curretly have 49 more points than SP, and 152 points more than ONU.  Now, I really do think that a lot of this will be cleared up tomorrow... it ONU beats La Crosse and Point knocks off Augie, then both teams have added another win against a good team.  It makes the decision tough between the two, but ONU's previous loss by double digits at home to Baldwin Wallace may carry some weight, especially because Bald Wally lost their last to 5-4 Edgewood.  Now, Edgewood is a bit of an enigma themselves, knocking off Aurora and BW, but...

I'm not looking forward to trying to figure out my poster's poll and it doesn't really "count" for anything!

My question is this... what if UW LaX knocks off ONU?  They shoot back into the top 25 for sure, but it's seemed like the Eagles get up for big games and don't for games that aren't so big... I dunno.  Loses to Loras an Carleton are a bit of a tarnish on their record, but big wins might offset that.

[Greek Tragedy]

And you said you didn't have computer access, Point Special! lol.    So far so good on getting your players in the WIAC fantasy league.

[Greek Tragedy]

...ssuming UW-SP beats Augustana, which they should.

What makes you say that?  Obviously you know more about Augustana than I do.  What kind of team do they have and what are their weaknesses? 

Point's real weakness is interior defending...though they've had some good games before.  They got shredded at Northern Michigan, granted against a stud D2 6'8" monster, who also launched 3's with no problem, but their overall defense was pretty bad, especially in the middle...does Augie have a big man that can cause problems?

[Titan Q]

...ssuming UW-SP beats Augustana, which they should.

What makes you say that?  Obviously you know more about Augustana than I do.  What kind of team do they have and what are their weaknesses? 

Point's real weakness is interior defending...though they've had some good games before.  They got shredded at Northern Michigan, granted against a stud D2 6'8" monster, who also launched 3's with no problem, but their overall defense was pretty bad, especially in the middle...does Augie have a big man that can cause problems?

OS, I'm of the opinion that Augustana is overrated at #9.  They're a good, solid team, but much more like a #15 team than top 10.  Augie beat unranked Wash U (8-1) by two points at home -- I've seen both teams, and they are dead even as that game would indicate.  The Vikings also have a nice 23-point home win over Coe (8-1), but I don't think any of their other wins are all that impressive (St. Norbert, Beloit, @ Simpson, Clarke, @ Cornell, Wartburg, Rockford).  And they were absolutely drilled at Quad City rival St. Ambrose (NAIA), 77-54.  St. Ambrose (7-7) is a pretty good NAIA II team, but not great.  Again, I will use the "What if they had played UW-Whitewater's schedule?" theory -- Augie would have at least a couple more losses and wouldn't be #9.

Augustana starts:

G Drew Wessels, 6-1 Sr.  (7.8 ppg, 3.2 ppg, 5.1 apg)
G Jordan Delp, 6-0 Jr.  (12.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg)
F Nate Swetella, 6-7 Sr.  (8.2 ppg, 3.4 rpg)
F Shaun Rose, 6-6 Sr.  (5.1 ppg, 4.6 rpg)
C Dain Swetella*, 6-9 Jr.  (9.6 ppg, 4.5 rpg)

* Hasn't played the last 3 games (injury) - I have no idea what his status is today.

Augie has a lot of interchangeable parts off the bench.  At the 2-4 spots, they really don't lose much when reserves come in.  Senior point-guard Drew Wessels makes them go.  He is not a scorer, but rather your protypical ball-handling, offense initiating point-guard...and probably the best on-ball perimeter defender in the CCIW.  6-9 junior center Dain Swetella is better than his stats so far indicate -- he is a pretty solid D3 low post man. 

Grey Giovanine's teams are famous for their hard-nosed, pressure defense.  Last year Augie opponents had 341 assists and 444 turnovers (0.77 A/T.O.).  In 2004-05, it was 313 assists and 449 turnovers (0.70 A/T.O.).  They play great man-to-man defense and pressure the heck out of the basketball, wherever it is.  It looks like your Pointers are very good at distributing and taking care of the ball though (149 assists, 88 t.o - 1.69), so it is an interesting matchup.  Augie won't wow you and they don't really have a star player on this team, but they can usually play with anyone due to their defense.  They are kind of one of those "win ugly" teams due to their style.

If UW-Stevens Point is a legit top 5 team, they'll handle Augie today at home.  If they do not, the CCIW will have the 2006 calendar year sweep of the WIAC, and you don't want that!


@Elmhurst 98, UW-Whitewater 91 (12/17/06)

@Elmhurst 55, UW-Oshkosh 52 (12/5/06)

IWU 69, @UW-Whitewater 68 OT (11/18/06)

IWU 85, @UW-Whitewater 71 (3/4/06)*

@Augustana 77, UW-Stout 70 (3/4/06)*

* NCAA Tournament

 

[FisherDynasty]

How is St. John Fisher getting no votes for top 25.  I know they lost a lot from last year and Im okay with them not being in the top 25 yet but they should be one of the border teams.  they are about to be 6-1 with wins over UofR, Geneseo, and York Pa.  (all possible ncaa tournament teams) and with past years success they should be getting votes. UofR is getting votes (who fisher beat) and Utica who is in Fishers league but havn't beaten fisher in 5 years. 

[gccfan]

Looks like UT-Dallas may have to start getting some votes after beating UT-Arlington today and improving to 11-0.

[Ralph Turner]

gccfan, I saw UTD tonight.  They played a very disciplined well-controlled game.  They move the ball well.  Martin Salinas was able to hit some early 3 pointers and put UTD up by 7 (19-12) at the 13:08 mark in the first.  UTA led 35-34 at the half.  Salinas gave Trinity all it could handle 2 years ago in the first round in Trinity's 66-60 win over UT-D.  IMHO, he is All-Region at the least.

Jordan Eppink is a very good freshman cneter (6'5" from Spring, TX  Houston suburb).  He missed some FT's at the end but did not hurt them. 

Scott Rodgers from The Woodlands,TX  is a 6'1" freshman who came off the bench for 19 points.  Rodgers was expecting looks from D1's, but got none and so was convinced to walk onto UT-D team when he arrived on campus this fall.  Rodgers got most of his points by taking the backdoor pass down low, I have his being 6-6 on 2FG's, almost all backdoor layups, plus 2 more assists on the backdoor play into the basket.  He is very good.

Travis Carruthers is a very heady 5'10" senior PG.  He runs the offense very well.

Mike McKee, a 6'2" junior from Houston, seems to pull the major defensive duties.

Ernie Lowrey, 6'1" sophomore from Spring, TX, seems to be the most athletic player on the team.

Brandon Green, a 6'1" Freshman from Houston, came off the bench for 9 points in 14 minutes.

UTD 78, UT-Arlington 76

[wooscotsfan]

Wooster Mose Hole Classic final results:

Consolation Game:  Wooster 98  Calvin 82

Wooster was led by James Cooper with 27 points, Tom Port with 20 points and Marty Bidwell with a career high 20 points (7 of 8 from the floor).  Devin Fulk also chipped in 14 points.  Scots won the boards 44-32 and shot 53.5% from the floor to control this game.

Wooster improves to 10-2 while Calvin drops to 5-5.

Championship Game:  Ohio Northern 73  Wisconsin-LaCrosse 70

Greg Badenhop scored a game-high 26 points and earned Tournament MVP honors as the Ohio Northern Polar Bears defeated Wisconsin-LaCrosse 73-70 in the championship game of the Wooster Mose Hole Classic at Timken Gymnasium.

Polar Bears improve to 10-1, while the Eagles fall to 8-4.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

Alright Pat Greensboro is now 9-1 I think they deserve a vote haha

[David Collinge]

Top 25 games, 12/25-31 -- LOTS of holiday tournaments (final):

#1 Wooster (10-2) lost to Ohio Northern 91-84 and def. Calvin 98-82
#2 Amherst (9-0) won at Trinity (TX) 66-54
#3 Virginia Wesleyan (8-2) lost at Mary Hardin-Baylor 63-62 and def. Hardin-Simmons 67-61 (OT), both at UMHB
#4 St. Thomas (8-1) def. St. Scholastica 82-76 at River Falls and won at UW-River Falls 87-84
#5 UW-Stevens Point (10-1) lost at Northern Michigan 101-92 and def. #9 Augustana 71-68
#6 Wittenberg (9-2) def. York (NY) 69-62 and def. IU-Southeast 78-47
#7 Ohio Northern (10-1) won at Wooster 91-84 and def. UW-La Crosse 73-70 at Wooster
#8 Whitworth (10-0) is idle
#9 Augustana (9-2) lost at #5 UW-Stevens Point 71-68
#10 William Paterson (9-1) is idle
#11 Mississippi College (9-1) def. Johns Hopkins 75-51 at Westmont (CA) and won at Westmont (CA) 81-77
#12 Averett (9-0) is idle
#13 Johns Hopkins (10-1) lost to Mississippi College 75-51 and def. Thomas More 72-50 at Westmont (CA)
#14 Lawrence (6-3) def. Allegheny 69-57 and def. Ursinus 70-65, both at Daytona Beach
#15 Puget Sound (9-1) is idle (lost exhibition to Simon Fraser 101-93)
#16 Bates (8-0) is idle
#17 Wheaton (IL) (7-3) def. Nazareth 94-89 (OT) and def. Rivier 60-44, both at Staten Island
#18 Carthage (8-2) lost at Lewis 78-60
#19 Hope (8-2) def. Trinity Christian 69-53 and def. Rochester (MI) 76-74
#20 Chicago (8-2) lost to Coe 70-67 and def. Cornell (IA) 76-51
#21 UW-Platteville (7-3) def. Richard Stockton 64-51 at Randolph-Macon and lost at Randolph-Macon 68-64
#22 DePauw (9-2) def. U. of Dallas 104-78 and lost to Hamilton 85-77 (OT) at Tampa
#23 NYU (9-0) def. SUNY-Old Westbury 85-55 and def. Clark 74-64
#24 North Central (IL) (8-3) def. Albion 69-58 and won at Judson (IL) 58-49
#25 Christopher Newport (7-4) def. Fisk 86-74 and def. Oswego St. 87-85

Happy New Year! 

[Pat Coleman]

How is St. John Fisher getting no votes for top 25.  I know they lost a lot from last year and Im okay with them not being in the top 25 yet but they should be one of the border teams.  they are about to be 6-1 with wins over UofR, Geneseo, and York Pa.  (all possible ncaa tournament teams) and with past years success they should be getting votes. UofR is getting votes (who fisher beat) and Utica who is in Fishers league but havn't beaten fisher in 5 years. 

They may all be possible NCAA Tournament teams, but with 58 teams in the tournament that doesn't mean they are part of a Top 25 resume.

If you're going to cling to a home, overtime victory over Rochester as a reason for a few votes, that's fine. But if one game is enough, then we'll have to find some votes for Brockport too, right? At least their win at St. John Fisher is a little more decisive.

[FisherDynasty]

Pat,

All I'm saying is... from previous years success Fisher should get some of the love all of the other big name schools get (not as much because fisher has not won the tournament) but some of it.  And not all of the top 25 teams that have 1,2 or even 3 losses have great wins on their resume either, but still get the votes. You can't tell me the top 25 goes strictly on the current seasons schedule (bases solely on solid wins & tough losses).  Fishers only loss is to a solid Bport team that may make the tournament as well and they played their best game they will play all season against Fisher.  Again, not saying Fisher is as good as past years and will keep up the win streak because they are young and have squeezed some wins out, but just would like to see the program get more respect, since it is one of the best in the region.