Top 25 talk

[Pat Coleman]

I guess to get the respect we deserve we are going to have to make a deeper run in the tourny. 

This has always been the case. We keep waiting for MC to do it. And waiting.

[sac]

MC needs to play better D if they hope to beat a GL team, thats been the common theme in both tournament losses to Calvin and Transylvania.

.......and I'll stand by my own eyeballs they were the 4th best team at each sectional I saw and I saw teams in rounds 1 and 2 that could have beaten MC.

[Ralph Turner]

MC needs to play better D if they hope to beat a GL team, thats been the common theme in both tournament losses to Calvin and Transylvania.

.......and I'll stand by my own eyeballs they were the 4th best team at each sectional I saw and I saw teams in rounds 1 and 2 that could have beaten MC.

Sac, I think that Coach Jones brings the intensity back to the MissCollege defense.  The Chocs led D3 in scoring defense in 2001 (?).  I agree with your assessment of the 2006 Transy game, my having watched the video feed.

As for the 20 game schedule, it does provide 20 South Region games.

I would like to see Miss College and another ASC-East team (LaCollege) host some Geograhic Region 3 teams (HCAC, OAC, MIAA or NCAC) in the Clinton Farm Bureau Classic.  Bring some Great Lakes Region teams to Clinton for in-region games.

Or, if a coach doesn't want to play an in-region game in the first weekend, bring down some CCIW talent for a couple of games.  (Ilinois and Wisconsin are not in-region for Mississippi or Louisiana.)

[golden_dome]

MC needs to play better D if they hope to beat a GL team, thats been the common theme in both tournament losses to Calvin and Transylvania.

The common theme in both of those losses was that MC had to travel over 800 miles to both sectionals. It is never mentioned but certainly travel is a huge obstacle for MC that GL teams usually avoid. In their last two tourneys, MC's best chances to advance, they opened the sectionals already behind the 8-ball. Over the last five years, 9 of the 20 Final Four participants hosted sectionals. Of the other eleven who advanced without hosting, only one had to travel further than 325 miles, Stevens Point in 2004, and seven of them were within about two hours of the sectional. Four of the last five National Champions hosted sectionals.

.......and I'll stand by my own eyeballs they were the 4th best team at each sectional I saw and I saw teams in rounds 1 and 2 that could have beaten MC.

I was also there and I would not agree with that at all, not even close. I thought Wittenberg was much better than the other seven teams and maybe Calvin also a notch higher. The other six teams were very close in my opinion and MC was the only team to travel more than 325 miles. Calvin and Transylvania, the two MC losses, averaged 130 miles and basically played home games.

I guess to get the respect we deserve we are going to have to make a deeper run in the tourney. 

This has always been the case. We keep waiting for MC to do it. And waiting.

They are one of only four teams in the country with back to back Sweet Sixteens so they have had success in the tourney. But I think most would agree it is much harder making a run playing that far away from home.  I would like to see this year's team play in front of their own fans but if it is not gonna happen they will have to eventually go halfway across the country and win someone else's sectional. If last year's 27-1 record  did not earn one, I doubt they ever get one with the scarcity of DIII teams surrounding us.

[Pat Coleman]

UW-Stevens Point won it all after playing in a section in Washington State. The 2001 champ had to go nearly 500 miles to play in a sectional on the road. It can be done.

[Ralph Turner]

UW-Stevens Point won it all after playing in a section in Washington State. The 2001 champ had to go nearly 500 miles to play in a sectional on the road. It can be done.

Pat, I listened to the 2004 Sweet 16 Sul Ross/Lawrence game over the internet, and followed the UW-SP/UPS game and then listened to the Lawrence/UWSP game the next night.  The Lawrence/UW-SP was played before a stated attendance of 245, a very quiet house.  UW-SP had played before 1809 the night before in their 100-79 win over the Loggers, but UWSP had taken the the home team out of the game.  SRSU and Lawrence played before an equally quiet house.  (The Lawrence web site does not give an official attendance).  Lawrence fans will remember the incredible comeback from 18 points down with 11:55 to take the game to OT, and win 86-79.

My thoughts after those games were that UWSP had the best team, but that UWSP's victory over UPS had given Lawrence and SRSU the best chance to advance by turning the game a "sterile" neutral floor.  On that neutral court, Lawrence took the Pointers to OT and lost 82-81.

One other side note, SRSU had traveled to San Antonio to play Trinity on Saturday night using the old "away (UDallas)-home(SRSU)-bye(Trinity)" triad format.  There were as many SRSU grads who had either driven the 450 miles to San Antonio or were local alumni who had walked up to purchase tickets.  The game reports on the ASC boards were that the SRSU fans were the dominant crowd in the Trinity gym that night.

IMHO, the best chance that the ASC gets to make it to the Final Four is to host a Sectional (Sweet 16/Elite 8 ).  UPS was fortunate to have 3 teams fly to Washington, rather than being flown back to Wisconsin with Sul Ross.  It can be done, but the ASC is a tough, well-balanced conference that drastically hurts their in-region record.  The ASC  will face tremendous geographic hurdles in trying to get to the Final Four.

2004 records...
Lawrence 18-4 in-region
SRSU 17-6 in-region (2 wins in the ASC tourney; 15-6 vs ASC regular season foes)
UW-SP 18-5 in-region
UPS 17-1 in-region

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

New Top 25 is out.  It seems these voters are having a tough time picking 3-25 as well.  I like Aurora's appearance.  They are putting together a solid season thus far.  I'm still not sold on Hope (sorry, legions of Dutch fans), they just haven't played anybody yet; early season losses to Wheaton and Carthage just don't equal a #12 ranking to me.  Hopkins and WPI seem equally suspect, but it's not like we're crawling in overachieving teams this year.

[golden_dome]

UW-Stevens Point won it all after playing in a section in Washington State. The 2001 champ had to go nearly 500 miles to play in a sectional on the road. It can be done.

Good morning Pat,
   Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that is the only reason they have had trouble, but it is a huge factor and merits mentioning. And almost 500 miles is still not the 900 MC has been doing where only a handful of fans can make the trip. Your right though, it can be done. But in six years only two of a possible 24 teams have done it and the numbers show what a huge advantage playing near home has been in Division III where very little separates teams.
   I have a lot of respect for Virginia Wesleyan and you saw one of the best teams in the country this Christmas struggle when forced to travel to the ASC rather than vice versa. And it is not inconceivable to think MC could have pulled off a similiar run last year playing the entire way in front of home crowds.
   MC has taken a lot of heat for not reaching the Final Four but I am just trying to offer a differing opinion of why. We might not do it this year but we have earned our position as a Top Ten program in my opinion.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I think MC will earn it this year if they can make it through unscathed.  They seem to be doing really well in the ASC thus far and a lot of the top teams in the MW/GL are losing games.  Hopefully MC can demand the sectional with their stellar record as UPS did in 2004.

[Pat Coleman]

UW-Stevens Point won it all after playing in a section in Washington State. The 2001 champ had to go nearly 500 miles to play in a sectional on the road. It can be done.

Pat, I listened to the 2004 Sweet 16 Sul Ross/Lawrence game over the internet, and followed the UW-SP/UPS game and then listened to the Lawrence/UWSP game the next night.  The Lawrence/UW-SP was played before a stated attendance of 245, a very quiet house.  UW-SP had played before 1809 the night before in their 100-79 win over the Loggers, but UWSP had taken the the home team out of the game. 

Uh huh -- and UWSP won the right to have that quiet game by beating the host team.

Not only have those two teams won national titles after playing sectionals far from home, but others have won sectionals, and even other have managed to win one game at a sectional.

MC has to be able to make that next step up.

[Greek Tragedy]

Pat, I listened to the 2004 Sweet 16 Sul Ross/Lawrence game over the internet, and followed the UW-SP/UPS game and then listened to the Lawrence/UWSP game the next night.  The Lawrence/UW-SP was played before a stated attendance of 245, a very quiet house.  UW-SP had played before 1809 the night before in their 100-79 win over the Loggers, but UWSP had taken the the home team out of the game. 

Point also went to Gustavus Adolphus, apparently one of the most hostile gyms in the nation from what I hear.  3213 was the attendence and the stands are right on top of you.

[Ralph Turner]

UW-Stevens Point won it all after playing in a section in Washington State. The 2001 champ had to go nearly 500 miles to play in a sectional on the road. It can be done.

Pat, I listened to the 2004 Sweet 16 Sul Ross/Lawrence game over the internet, and followed the UW-SP/UPS game and then listened to the Lawrence/UWSP game the next night.  The Lawrence/UW-SP was played before a stated attendance of 245, a very quiet house.  UW-SP had played before 1809 the night before in their 100-79 win over the Loggers, but UWSP had taken the the home team out of the game. 

Uh huh -- and UWSP won the right to have that quiet game by beating the host team.

Not only have those two teams won national titles after playing sectionals far from home, but others have won sectionals, and even other have managed to win one game at a sectional.

MC has to be able to make that next step up.

Yes, sorry I did not follow-up on my point.  UWSP did what they had to do.  I think that SRSU and Lawrence both lost a golden opportunity to neutralize the UWSP crowd and get past the Pointers.  They may never be as lucky again.  If the ASC doesn't ever get a Sectional, then SRSU's scenario in 2004 is the best chance that I see for us, that is to win on the other side of the bracket, while the home team is losing in the first game of the Sectional.

When McMurry went to Calvin and played before 30 McMurry fans, 70 Hope fans who hate Calvin, and 4400 Calvin fans, I heard a tidal wave of support from the home fans.  In fact, skin biopsies of the fans in attendance would have found more melanocytes in the 30 McMurry fans than in the entire Calvin contingent!   

[David Collinge]

Top 25 Schedules and Results, Jan. 8-14 (UPDATED with some Tuesday scores):

#1 UW-Stevens Point (13-1) def. Lakeland 97-59 and plays at UW-Eau Claire Wed.
#2 Amherst (12-0) won at Wesleyan 76-52, plays at Tufts Fri., and plays at #12 Bates Sat.
#3 St. Thomas (11-1) def. Augsburg 80-63, hosts Gustavus Adolphus Wed., and plays at Concordia-Moorhead Sat.
#4 Ohio Northern (11-2) plays at Wilmington Wed. and plays at John Carroll Sat.
#5 Wooster (11-2) plays at Allegheny Wed. and hosts Wabash Sat.
#6 Whitworth (13-0) hosts #17 Puget Sound Fri. and hosts Pacific Lutheran Sat.
#7 Virginia Wesleyan (11-2) plays at Lynchburg Sat.
#8 Wittenberg (11-2) plays at Earlham Wed. and plays at Hiram Sat.
#9 Mississippi College (11-1) hosts Texas-Dallas Thu. and hosts Texas-Tyler Sat.
#10 UW-Oshkosh (12-2) plays at #20 UW-La Crosse Wed. and plays at UW-River Falls Sat.
#11 Hope (10-2) hosts Albion Wed. and plays at Calvin Sat.
#12 Bates (11-0) def. U. New England 90-46, hosts Trinity (CT) Fri., and hosts #2 Amherst Sat.
#13 William Paterson (10-3) plays at New Jersey City Wed. and hosts Ramapo Sat.
#14 Elmhurst (11-1) plays at #18 Carthage Wed. and hosts Illinois Wesleyan Sat.
#15 Augustana (10-3) plays at #21 Wheaton (IL) Wed. and hosts #18 Carthage Sat.
#16 Washington U. (10-1) plays at Case Western Reserve Fri. and plays at Emory Sun.
#17 Puget Sound (10-2) plays at #6 Whitworth Fri. and at Whitman Sat.
#18 Carthage (9-3) hosts #14 Elmhurst Wed. and plays at #15 Augustana Sat.
#19 Johns Hopkins (11-2) lost to Haverford 64-59, plays at Ursinus Thu., and hosts Muhlenburg Sat.
#20 UW-La Crosse (9-4) hosts #10 UW-Oshkosh Wed. and plays at UW-Superior Sat.
#21 Wheaton (IL) (8-4) hosts #15 Augustana Wed. and plays at North Park Sat.
#22 Occidental (7-3) hosts Caltech Wed. and hosts Claremont-Mudd-Scripps Sat.
#23 Worcester Polytech (10-1) won at Springfield 82-75, hosts Babson Thu., and plays at Clark Sat.
#24 NYU (11-1) plays at Brandeis Sat.
#25 Aurora (10-1) hosts Dominican Wed. and plays at Clarke Fri.

[Titan Q]

I do sincerely think the ASC has a tough situation because of geography, but I think a lot of teams have a tough Sectional situation due to other factors in the tournament process.

Here are the four Sectionals Illinois Wesleyan has been in this decade, with the D3hoops.com ranking of the host school noted:


2006 - @ #1 Lawrence

2004 - @ #4 Wooster

2003 - @ #1 Randolph-Macon

2001 - @ #1 Chicago

(Second round games included @ #2 Wash U in 2003 and @ #2 Hanover in 2004.)


IWU advanced to the Final Four in 2001 and 2006 by defeating the #1-ranked teams in the country on their floors.  While I do think the ASC situation is difficult, is it any worse than the above? 

If a team is good enough to make it to Salem, it will win on the road in a tough venue.  Lawrence's gym may only hold 1500 and not 4000 like Calvin's, but I've never seen a more hostile or more difficult place to play in a Sectional game than what IWU faced last year in Appleton, WI.

Bottom line, the ASC needs to get it done on the floor when it counts, no matter where it is.

[golden_dome]

Uh huh -- and UWSP won the right to have that quiet game by beating the host team.

Not only have those two teams won national titles after playing sectionals far from home, but others have won sectionals, and even other have managed to win one game at a sectional.

MC has to be able to make that next step up.

Can't argue with that. Actually, by my count in the last five years 14 teams have been forced to fly into sectionals and eight of them won at least one game though only one advanced to the Final Four, Stevens Point 04. My only point is that teams who reach the Final Four after flying into a sectional join a very elite club and are at a competitive disadvantage by flying.

I do sincerely think the ASC has a tough situation because of geography, but I think a lot of teams have a tough Sectional situation due to other factors in the tournament process.

Here are the four Sectionals Illinois Wesleyan has been in this decade, with the D3hoops.com ranking of the host school noted:

2006 - @ #1 Lawrence
2004 - @ #4 Wooster
2003 - @ #1 Randolph-Macon
2001 - @ #1 Chicago
(Second round games included @ #2 Wash U in 2003 and @ #2 Hanover in 2004.)

IWU advanced to the Final Four in 2001 and 2006 by defeating the #1-ranked teams in the country on their floors.  While I do think the ASC situation is difficult, is it any worse than the above? 

If a team is good enough to make it to Salem, it will win on the road in a tough venue.  Lawrence's gym may only hold 1500 and not 4000 like Calvin's, but I've never seen a more hostile or more difficult place to play in a Sectional game than what IWU faced last year in Appleton, WI.

Bottom line, the ASC needs to get it done on the floor when it counts, no matter where it is.

IWU has definitely drawn tough opponents in the tourney and their record in the tourney has to be as good as about anyone. I agree with you that who you play is at least equally important to the travel. But though IWU beat top-ranked teams on the road, the one time they were forced to fly in the last five or six years they lost to Hampden-Sydney in 2003 at the Randolph-Macon sectional. That would prove the argument that extended travel was more important than who they played. But I know one flight is not enough to prove anything, just making a point. IWU has been very impressive in the tournament.