Top 25 talk

[David Collinge]

The ink is barely dry on the new men's top 25, and already we have a loser:

Haverford 64
#19 Johns Hopkins 59

[Mr. Ypsi]

Re: the travel disadvantage.  So far the talk is only of those flying in.  Since the NCAA flies only those beyond 500 miles, I can't help wondering how those numbers might compare to those who were bussed 400+ miles.  (Though if it is a luxury charter bus (rather than a school bus), I think I'd take the bus over the airport hassles and no-leg-room plane!)

[Ralph Turner]

Uh huh -- and UWSP won the right to have that quiet game by beating the host team.

Not only have those two teams won national titles after playing sectionals far from home, but others have won sectionals, and even other have managed to win one game at a sectional.

MC has to be able to make that next step up.

Can't argue with that. Actually, by my count in the last five years 14 teams have been forced to fly into sectionals and eight of them won at least one game though only one advanced to the Final Four, Stevens Point 04. My only point is that teams who reach the Final Four after flying into a sectional join a very elite club and are at a competitive disadvantage by flying.

I do sincerely think the ASC has a tough situation because of geography, but I think a lot of teams have a tough Sectional situation due to other factors in the tournament process.

Here are the four Sectionals Illinois Wesleyan has been in this decade, with the D3hoops.com ranking of the host school noted:

2006 - @ #1 Lawrence
2004 - @ #4 Wooster
2003 - @ #1 Randolph-Macon
2001 - @ #1 Chicago
(Second round games included @ #2 Wash U in 2003 and @ #2 Hanover in 2004.)

IWU advanced to the Final Four in 2001 and 2006 by defeating the #1-ranked teams in the country on their floors.  While I do think the ASC situation is difficult, is it any worse than the above? 

If a team is good enough to make it to Salem, it will win on the road in a tough venue.  Lawrence's gym may only hold 1500 and not 4000 like Calvin's, but I've never seen a more hostile or more difficult place to play in a Sectional game than what IWU faced last year in Appleton, WI.

Bottom line, the ASC needs to get it done on the floor when it counts, no matter where it is.

IWU has definitely drawn tough opponents in the tourney and their record in the tourney has to be as good as about anyone. I agree with you that who you play is at least equally important to the travel. But though IWU beat top-ranked teams on the road, the one time they were forced to fly in the last five or six years they lost to Hampden-Sydney in 2003 at the Randolph-Macon sectional. That would prove the argument that extended travel was more important than who they played. But I know one flight is not enough to prove anything, just making a point. IWU has been very impressive in the tournament.

Chris, excellent post.

I think that a bigger issue on travel is how far one team's fans can go.  May I assume correctly that IWU has a fan base that travels sufficiently well, and that the team has been conditioned to traveling with that fan base thru a tough CCIW schedule?  I gues that IWU is never really underrepresented by their fan base anyplace they play, most of the season.  If IWU can get into a car a drive there, 4 or 6 or 8 hours, IWU will get there.

If that be the case, then the only way to "isolate" an IWU team would be to send them to some remote location, such as Abilene, TX.   

[Mr. Ypsi]

Ralph,

IWU has a very large and active alumni chapter in Abilene - sorry!

(Actually, I just made that up. )

They do have a history of turning many opposing gyms into neutral, if not downright home, courts (if I remember right, that tourney game at #2 Wash U was reportedly 75-80% IWU fans).  I believe it was reported last season that the tourney games at both Whitewater and Lawrence were effectively neutral-fan games.

Maybe we just couldn't get enough fans to RMC, but I suspect the more likely explanation is that H-S just outplayed us!

[Titan Q]

I believe IWU travels as well as team in Division III, but even IWU fans have trouble pulling off a Friday sectional game in some remote location like Ashland, Virginia.  That is a 10 hour drive or a flight.  I think IWU only sold about 150 of its allotted 250 tickets for that Friday night Hampden-Sydney game.  (Compare that to the approximately 1200 IWU fans that traveled 2 1/2 hours to St. Louis the weekend before when IWU played at #2 Wash U...that was the most impressive road crowd I've ever seen in Division III.)  IWU's crowd was a non-factor in that game vs H-S, an ODAC team playing in a familiar gym, and their huge crowd.

The Wooster trip was also tough on fans.   That's a 7 hour drive.  IWU probably had 200 people there, but the huge Wooster crowd totally neutralized the small IWU group.

Last year's sectional at Lawrence was also difficult.  Appleton is a 5 hour drive from Bloomington.  IWU had a great crowd for the game vs Lawrence, but the little gym was still 75% Lawrence fans of course.

I do not think IWU's traveling fan base is as big of a factor in it's tournament success as the fact that the Titans play in front of big, hostile road crowds all season long in the CCIW (and about 2500 per home date).  I think that is a huge advantage come tournament time.  In March, IWU always looks comfortable on the road, whether it be at Wartburg or Chicago or Hanover or Lawrence.  Some teams that make the tourney find themselves in unfamiliar territory and with that collective deer in the headlights look.

[golden_dome]

Ralph,
   That is really what I am getting at. The last two season's we might have had about ten people make the trips to the sectional. Two years ago when we played Calvin at Albion, that place was insane and full to the rafters with Calvin fans. I'm really not blaming the losses on that but it didn't help.
    Honestly, I would just like to see our fans, students and community get to experience the environments that I have seen in the northern sectionals, its awesome. We had nearly 2,500 last year for our first two games and would have had over 3,000 with a trip to the Final Four on the line.
    Playing at home or nearby obviously increases your chances of winning. It would have been hard for someone to come in and beat us last year in the dome. And I would have liked to see someone try to go into McMurry and beat the 2000 team. I just don't see it. I still think that is the best DIII team I have personally seen and they played out of their mind in that building. A crazy environment with the style of play and the fans right on top of you.
   

[Titan Q]

Maybe we just couldn't get enough fans to RMC, but I suspect the more likely explanation is that H-S just outplayed us!

And yes, IWU didn't lose to H-S because of the flight...they lost because they just didn't match up well vs them and got out-played. 

I'm not one that puts a ton of stock in the theory that air travels take it out of the players in the tournament.  I mean, what is the difference between a 7 hour bus ride from Bloomington, IL to Wooster, OH and a long day of air travel?  As someone who flies for work regularly (every other week) I do realize how tough air travel can be, but we're talking about 20 year old kids here.  By the time the ball gets thrown up, I believe they are fine and ready to play.

Now, the advantage of playing at home vs the road in general...that is another topic.  Without question, it is huge advantage to play at home in the tournament.  Do I think IWU would have defeated the same Hampden-Sydey team in 2003 at the Shirk Center, in front of 3200 Titan fans?  Absolutely.

[Titan Q]

And by the way, I do hope Mississippi College earns a Sectional this year.  I predicted they would on Hoopsville this week.  As Chris points out, it is a wonderful atmosphere and something every great fan base should get to be part of.

[golden_dome]

And by the way, I do hope Mississippi College earns a Sectional this year.  I predicted they would on Hoopsville this week.  As Chris points out, it is a wonderful atmosphere and something every great fan base should get to be part of.

I really hope we do but there is still a long way to go. Especially this year when it seems like every week ten different Top 25 teams get beat.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Chris,

But your guys have done a great job of dodging the bullet ever since the opener.  I suspect that is why Elmhurst made such a huge leap this week (I don't think it was just beating Augie!) - I think voters caught up to the fact that losing to Simpson was the FIRST game, and they've reeled off 11 straight since then.

[Ralph Turner]

Chris, the McMurry-MissCollege games have probably been the best in the ASC over the last decade.  We have too many new players this year for them to have the real appreciation of a McMurry-MissCollege game, but I think that the way that Coach Jones got onto his players in the first half of the November 30th game, as described by Pat Coleman, may have given them a glimpse.  I think that Coach Holmes probably respects Coach Jones more than any other coach in the league, in the same manner of a Darrell Royal/Frank Broyles or Darrell Royal/Bud Wilkinson respect.

That being said, the way that the Golden Dome would work for us at McMurry would be to have played there in the conference tourney and then go back there the next week.   If McMurry won their side of the bracket and MissCollege lost theirs, then the Choctaw fans might make a difference if they jumped on the McMurry/ASC bandwagon!

As for the toughening that a hostile environment will give you, I think that TitanQ is absolutely correct for the advantage that CCIW schools have from their conference experience.

[golden_dome]

Chris,

But your guys have done a great job of dodging the bullet ever since the opener.  I suspect that is why Elmhurst made such a huge leap this week (I don't think it was just beating Augie!) - I think voters caught up to the fact that losing to Simpson was the FIRST game, and they've reeled off 11 straight since then.

We've played well after that loss. We should never lose that game but the stars all lined up for that one. Wesley is a team we traditionally beat at least 30, they were drastically improved playing their 10th game of the season and we were playing our opener with a new head coach. We had over 30 turnovers and they still needed a wild three-pointer at the buzzer to send it to OT.  But they are 15-7 with wins over us and two pretty good NAIA DI teams (Spring Hill and Belhaven).

Looking forward to the UT-Dallas game Thursday night, should be fun.

[Pat Coleman]

The ink is barely dry on the new men's top 25, and already we have a loser:

Haverford 64
#19 Johns Hopkins 59

Phew. Talk about overrated.

[Mr. Ypsi]

The ink is barely dry on the new men's top 25, and already we have a loser:

Haverford 64
#19 Johns Hopkins 59

Phew. Talk about overrated.

I had them #24 on my PP ballot ONLY because of the pernicious influence of your week 5 poll!

I should have joined two HOFers and stuck in my Titans!

[Gregory Sager]

Color me happy that I left JHU off of my PP ballot.