Top 25 talk

[Pat Coleman]

Perhaps the discussion of the posters' poll ballots could be left on the posters' poll page.

[Gregory Sager]

Perhaps the discussion of the posters' poll ballots could be left on the posters' poll page.

Most of the past thirty posts in this room have revolved around Mississippi College having to travel to sectionals, and the degree to which traveling long distances hampers performance in the D3 tournament. That had squat-all to do with the Top 25, Pat ... and yet I didn't see you asking for that conversation to be moved to one of the Multi-Regional Topics rooms that deal with the D3 tournament. In fact, you even contributed to that tournament-travel discussion in here.

Over the past week, this room has touched upon (among other things) the question of whether or not neutral sites should be used in the D3 tourney in light of North Central's having had to travel to St. Thomas in last year's opening round; Terry Pluto's book Loose Balls about the old ABA; and Rochester, NY and its distinctive local cuisine. None of those digressions from Top 25 discussion seem to have merited any reproaches from you.

So why are you jumping on Chuck and I after only two posts that mentioned the PP? And Chuck's is even pertinent to this room, as he explained that he had based his PP ballot upon last week's D3hoops.com Top 25, and his post followed seamlessly upon the two comments made previous to his about Johns Hopkins losing this evening.

Come on, Pat.

[David Collinge]

There's off-topic, and then there's off-topic. 

This is just my opinion, of course, but I've always felt that this site has a perfectly good and well-researched top 25 poll (two, actually), and that a "poster's poll" adds nothing.  It may be a fun little diversion but in no way can it be compared to the real thing.  This room is supposed to be devoted to discussion of the real poll, and while going off-topic to talk about travel or other things can be annoying, going off-topic to talk about the poster's poll can be misleading and detrimental. 

You may have wondered why I don't participate in the poster's poll; well, this is why.  As perhaps the #1 fan of the real poll, I can't imagine setting myself up to know more than the actual poll voters, and therefore would just submit the D3Hoops.com poll as my ballot each week.  And where's the fun in that?

Furthermore, the top 25 polls are (I would guess) the biggest sources of publicity--and therefore hits, and therefore revenue--for this site.  I've never been quite comfortable with the idea that those of us who take so much from this (free) site and give so little back would want to go into competition (however minor) with the site's #1 product.  Nevertheless, I haven't said or done anything to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for the poster's poll, other than to choose non-participation.  But I'd be happier if it stayed out of this room.

As I say, it's just my opinion, and everyone knows I'm just an old curmudgeon.   

[Pat Coleman]

Come on, Pat.

Because I am reading the board tonight -- the entire board as I always do -- and I'm bombarded by Posters Poll This and Posters Poll That. Enough already. Maybe here, on the board for the real poll, it would be nice not to have to read about the Posters Poll.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I agree.  As much as I love the chance to dissect more and more numbers (I'd love to have 400 polls just because I love comparing these things), I wholeheartedly agree that mention of that should be kept to the board it's in.  It's just, honestly, a bit of humility on our part.  When we're posting on other boards, a simple "I'd put them at 20 or I don't think they are worthy of a ranking" is probably sufficient to make our point.  In reality the poster's poll is only exciting to those of us who participate in it, frankly because anyone can participate in it.  I enjoy it; I think it's good, but it probably doesn't need to show up all over the site.  That's a bit excessive.

[sac]

And I would have liked to see someone try to go into McMurry and beat the 2000 team. I just don't see it. I still think that is the best DIII team I have personally seen and they played out of their mind in that building. A crazy environment with the style of play and the fans right on top of you.
   

Sorry but home courts do not erase 36 point deficits. 

Calvin 115, McMurry, Tex. 79

Not to beat this to death but its D-E-F-E-N-C-E.

MISSISSIPPI COLLEGE
2005 at Albion College vs Calvin........allowed  51% shooting while shooting 39%
http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/0405/0311MCCA.HTM

2006 at Wittenberg vs Transylvania.......allowed  51% shooting while shooting 42%
http://www4.wittenberg.edu/news/athletics/mbasketball/statistics/05-06statistics/ncaa4.htm


I'm also certain I've karma'd my team into a flight to Mississippi come March.

[sac]

I've asked this before but I'll do it again...


Tonight Hope's Glenn Van Wieren and Albion's Mike Turner square off against each other, each has achieved 500 wins in their career.

Are there any other matchups with 500 game winners this year or two coaches playing with more wins?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Hixon at Amherst has 500 as does Whitmore at Colby.  They play every year.  I think they may have just a couple more combined wins than Van Wieren and Turner, but it's probably pretty close.

[Ralph Turner]

And I would have liked to see someone try to go into McMurry and beat the 2000 team. I just don't see it. I still think that is the best DIII team I have personally seen and they played out of their mind in that building. A crazy environment with the style of play and the fans right on top of you.
   

Sorry but home courts do not erase 36 point deficits. 

Calvin 115, McMurry, Tex. 79

Not to beat this to death but its D-E-F-E-N-C-E.

MISSISSIPPI COLLEGE
2005 at Albion College vs Calvin........allowed  51% shooting while shooting 39%
http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/0405/0311MCCA.HTM

2006 at Wittenberg vs Transylvania.......allowed  51% shooting while shooting 42%
http://www4.wittenberg.edu/news/athletics/mbasketball/statistics/05-06statistics/ncaa4.htm


I'm also certain I've karma'd my team into a flight to Mississippi come March.

Sac, if you had the good fortune to see the Calvin Sectional in 2000, I encourage your observations as well.

The Calvin Sectional was created under the Handbook guidelines that sent the South Region to the Great Lakes Region that year.  That put #1 Calvin, #2 Hampden-Sydney, #3 Wooster and #4 McMurry, a cumulative 101-6, in the same Sectional.

(#39t) Maryville knocked off #2 H-SC 76-75 in the second round of this 48-team tourney, and moved to the Calvin Sectional.

Calvin edged #25 Franklin the nation's leader in FG %-age at 51.6% and 3FG %age at 41.8% 92-90 in OT at home in the second round in the bye-home-away format.

Wooster advanced to the Sectional by virtue of the 82-71 win over (#36t) ONU.

McMurry had defeated unranked Pomona-Pitzer 111-76 after the Sagehens had defeated #9 Trinity (25-2) 65-62 in San Antonio in the first round.

Calvin defeated Wooster 82-53 in the Sweet 16 while McMurry was defeating Maryville TN, 112-95.

Respectfully, I think that we are discussing different styles of defensive play.  I believe that we have had this discussion before, but for the newer readers, let me elaborate.

Traditionally, fans see a 63-62 game and say "great defense".  Dissecting the game film will show that the point guard takes the inbounds pass, moves the ball up the court with some one-on-one pressure.  He crosses the half court line after 8 seconds.  He stands at the top of the key for 4 seconds and outlines the play.  The wings move around with some passes, while the big men have basically stood around as the passes are being attempted, until the ball comes inside with about 5 seconds on the clock.  The big men have spent 30 secs running 80-85 feet, with some moving around in the paint and then starting the cycle again after a score.  If the offense recovers the offensive rebound, the offense starts the play over again, and may score this time with 2 seconds on the clock when a penetration or a pass or a jumper is made.  The big men made one excursion of the length of the floor in 60 secs of playing clock time.  As much as 10-15 secs of the possession is spent in down-time.

The 2000 McMurry team incorporated what may be described as an aggressive variation of Nolan Richardson's "40 minutes of hell".  They were led by 2000 All-American point guard, Daniel Martinez (#1 in assists 7.9apg and #1 in steals 6.1 spg) and 2001 guard Alex Denson, who came off the bench.  Only Martinez had 29 mpg.  Denson had 22 mpg and 9 others had double digit minutes.  The typical cycle would involve a score on offense, intense pressure resulting in a steal or a turnover.  This change in possession required the opponent's big men to hurry back on defense.  A quick basket in the first 10 secs of the possession would then return McMurry to playing full-court pressure defense.  McMurry would sub an entire unit every 3-4 minutes and continue all night.  The pressure was incredible, and it was all driven by the turnover or the defensive stop.  The full court press would begin off the made basket.

McMurry was #2 in scoring in D3 100.3 ppg (second only to Grinnell's 103.6 ppg),

1.Grinnell ------------------------ 21 ( 6-15) 2175 103.6
  2.McMurry ------------------------- 29 (27- 2) 2909 100.3

#2 in scoring margin

1.Hampden-Sydney ------------------------  88.2 66.4 21.8
2.McMurry ------------------------------- 100.3 82.4 17.9

Their only losses were to NAIA-1 St Gregory OK and to Calvin.  The McMurry defensive style was to score and then get back on defense.  The average game would involve runs of scoring, but at the 33-35 minute mark,  McMurry would pull away from its opponent, by wearing them down with their press and the number of cycles (or trips) up and down the floor.  I cannot find the Calvin archive that I remember seeing a few years ago.  McMurry's Daniel Martinez holds the Calvin opponent's single game record for 6 steals against Calvin that night.  That is great defense.  That GameStat archive is not available to me, but I remember that we led by 8-9 (about 43 to 34/35) with about 8 minutes left.  Calvin called a timeout.

I believe that the Calvin braintrust in the gym there in Grand Rapids had seen McMurry defeat a solid Maryville TN with this up-style tempo.  (Since that time, Maryville TN players have posted they could not figure out that defensive scheme, all night long.)  After seeing it for 40 minutes on Friday night, Calvin finally solved the puzzle after about 12 minutes of play in the first half, and their talented athletes, including Aaron Winkle and Jeremy Veenstra, did not let up.  Since McMurry's offense played off this defense, there was no other way to get back into the game, and so the rout continued, while the Calvin fans were going "bonkers".  As I listened over the internet to the lead melt away and Calvin take total dominance in the second half, I was amazed at the atmosphere of 4500 screaming fans.

Daniel Martinez finished as the #3 D3 in all-time steals for a career (page 110), and his freshman year did not count because McMurry was D3 provisional in 1996-97.

I attribute the Calvin-McMurry game as outstanding talent and astute coaching that was able to solve a defensive scheme that no one else had.  Calvin's win over Franklin does not look like traditional great defense.  In that respect, it looks like the Calvin offense outscored an outstanding offensive team.


NCAA 2000 Season Statistics

[gordonmann]

Sac:

Great question.

I couldn't find any other men's examples that top the Albion/Hope game for coaches' victories. If Otterbein and Rochester ever play, that might do it now that Neer has 500.

At a glance, Franklin & Marshall and Johns Hopkins are the closest I could find on this year's schedule with around 1000 and change.  Robinson (F&M) has over 700 wins with Nelson accounting for the rest.

There seems to be a greater chance for this on the women's side with Strong (Scranton), Kahler (St. John Fisher), Kaufman (Elizabethtown) and Fifield (Southern Maine) all relatively close to each other.

[wooscotsfan]

Final:  #5 Wooster 97  Allegheny 87

Wooster gets the road win even though Tom Port sat ~6 minutes in the second half with 4 fouls and Tim Vandervaart did not play tonight due to his calf injury (might return this Saturday).  Wooster actually led by 16 points (78-62) before the Gators hit several three pointers to narrow the lead.

Wooster was led by James Cooper with 25 points, Andy Van Horn with 18 points, Evan Will with 12 points (also 12 boards), Brandon Johnson with 15 points and Tom Port with 15 points.

Allegheny was led by Bill Babe with 26 points (6 three pointers), George Raftis with 17 points and Jimmy Savage with 14 points.

Wooster is now 12-2, 5-0 NCAC    Next up is Wabash at home on Saturday

GO SCOTS!

[wooscotsfan]

Final: #4 Ohio Northern 63  Wilmington 62

Polar Bears escape with a very narrow road win tonight.  Wilmington actually had the ball with 10 seconds left and a chance to win but turned the ball over as time expired.

ONU is now tied for first in OAC play at 5-2 with both Capital and Baldwin-Wallace because they were both upset tonight on their home floors by Mount Union and Otterbein respectively.  Actually, it is a 4 way tie for first place because Heidelberg is also 5-2 after beating John Carroll tonight.

[diehardfan]

I'm really not sure NCC deserves to be in the Top 25, and for the same reason, I don't think Wheaton currently deserves their Top 25 spot at this moment either

Oh how I wish I wasn't right. 

All of the home teams (Carthage, Wheaton, NCC, IWU) lost today in CCIW conference action, especially surprising is NCC's loss to NPU (congrats to Greg!) and Millikin's defeat of IWU.... for huge stretches, these games weren't even close!

This conference is absolutely INSANE this year. 

[David Collinge]

Top 25 Schedules and Results, Jan. 8-14 (UPDATED with Wednesday scores):

#1 UW-Stevens Point (14-1) def. Lakeland 97-59 and won at UW-Eau Claire 77-43
#2 Amherst (12-0) won at Wesleyan 76-52, plays at Tufts Fri., and plays at #12 Bates Sat.
#3 St. Thomas (12-1) def. Augsburg 80-63, def. Gustavus Adolphus 74-57, and plays at Concordia-Moorhead Sat.
#4 Ohio Northern (12-2) won at Wilmington 63-62 and plays at John Carroll Sat.
#5 Wooster (12-2) won at Allegheny 97-87 and hosts Wabash Sat.
#6 Whitworth (13-0) hosts #17 Puget Sound Fri. and hosts Pacific Lutheran Sat.
#7 Virginia Wesleyan (11-2) plays at Lynchburg Sat.
#8 Wittenberg (12-2) won at Earlham 71-60 and plays at Hiram Sat.
#9 Mississippi College (11-1) hosts Texas-Dallas Thu. and hosts Texas-Tyler Sat.
#10 UW-Oshkosh (12-3) lost at #20 UW-La Crosse 48-47 and plays at UW-River Falls Sat.
#11 Hope (11-2) def. Albion 94-58 and plays at Calvin Sat.
#12 Bates (11-0) def. U. New England 90-46, hosts Trinity (CT) Fri., and hosts #2 Amherst Sat.
#13 William Paterson (10-4) lost at New Jersey City 56-42 and hosts Ramapo Sat.
#14 Elmhurst (12-1) won at #18 Carthage 72-62 and hosts Illinois Wesleyan Sat.
#15 Augustana (11-3) won at #21 Wheaton (IL) 74-69 and hosts #18 Carthage Sat.
#16 Washington U. (10-1) plays at Case Western Reserve Fri. and plays at Emory Sun.
#17 Puget Sound (10-2) plays at #6 Whitworth Fri. and at Whitman Sat.
#18 Carthage (9-4) lost to #14 Elmhurst 72-62 and plays at #15 Augustana Sat.
#19 Johns Hopkins (11-2) lost to Haverford 64-59, plays at Ursinus Thu., and hosts Muhlenburg Sat.
#20 UW-La Crosse (10-4) def. #10 UW-Oshkosh 48-47 and plays at UW-Superior Sat.
#21 Wheaton (IL) (8-5) lost to #15 Augustana 74-69 and plays at North Park Sat.
#22 Occidental (8-3) def. Caltech 103-40 and hosts Claremont-Mudd-Scripps Sat.
#23 Worcester Polytech (10-1) won at Springfield 82-75, hosts Babson Thu., and plays at Clark Sat.
#24 NYU (11-1) plays at Brandeis Sat.
#25 Aurora (11-1) def. Dominican 90-66 and plays at Clarke Fri.

[wooscotsfan]

David - thanks for another great job on the Top 25 update! k+