Top 25 talk

[Marty Peretz]

Can someone honestly attempt to justify St. Thomas' number 3 ranking? Their best win comes against a quality but not great Occidental club. It baffles me that WashU (admittedly a team I've followed closely) is ranked 13th despite wins over Colby (neutral site half way across the country for WU, 2 hours from Colby), Illinois Weselyan (on the road), double figures victory over Chicago on the road..and a 2 point loss on the road to a good Augustana club (a game in which WU lost its then second leading scorer). Certainly after wins this weekend against a very solid Rochester club and a respectable Carnegie squad, the Bears will likely climb into the top ten. But let's say they check in at 8 or 9. Will St. Thomas, with more losses and a considerably weaker schedule than WashU, remain in the top 10? I suspect they will because the voters won't be inclined to demote them more than maybe 5 spots. That to me is absurd. I don't mean to pick on St.Thomas in particular. I'm sure they are a fine club and I admittedly haven't seen them play. I'm more frustrated with the rankings system in general. Because WashU (and other clubs too for that matter--this isn't just about my team) didn't get much, if any national hype entering the season, they are automatically at a disadvantage. It just takes so damn long to climb the rankings. I understand there's nothing you can do about this at the beginning of the year. This is, after all, Division III basketball and there's no such thing as national exposure. But  one thing that close followers of D3 hoops (read: the voters) should know is that certain teams play in tougher conferences and play perenially more difficult nonconference schedules: WashU has done both. And now that we're two months into the season, it seems pretty clear that they deserve to be in the top 10, maybe top 5 in the country come Monday.

[balls a dunkin]

Could Mississippi College possibly break into the top 5?

Possibly?  Sure; it all depends on how the voters feel about St. Thomas' loss to 13-3 St. John's.  UST was 81 points (= 3.25 placements) ahead of MC last week, and the Choctaws didn't do anything special in beating Louisiana Coll. and U. Ozarks.  I think they'll be close at #5/#6.

They are on a 15 game win streak.  Amherst is the only team that has more.  True LC and the Ozarks aren't the best teams in the world,  but there is not at team anywhere that plays a top 25 team every game. 

[David Collinge]

Could Mississippi College possibly break into the top 5?

Possibly?  Sure; it all depends on how the voters feel about St. Thomas' loss to 13-3 St. John's.  UST was 81 points (= 3.25 placements) ahead of MC last week, and the Choctaws didn't do anything special in beating Louisiana Coll. and U. Ozarks.  I think they'll be close at #5/#6.

They are on a 15 game win streak.  Amherst is the only team that has more.  True LC and the Ozarks aren't the best teams in the world,  but there is not at team anywhere that plays a top 25 team every game. 

The first 13 of those fifteen wins are already accounted for in MC's #7 ranking. 

Can someone honestly attempt to justify St. Thomas' number 3 ranking? Their best win comes against a quality but not great Occidental club. It baffles me that WashU (admittedly a team I've followed closely) is ranked 13th despite wins over Colby (neutral site half way across the country for WU, 2 hours from Colby), Illinois Weselyan (on the road), double figures victory over Chicago on the road..and a 2 point loss on the road to a good Augustana club (a game in which WU lost its then second leading scorer). Certainly after wins this weekend against a very solid Rochester club and a respectable Carnegie squad, the Bears will likely climb into the top ten. But let's say they check in at 8 or 9. Will St. Thomas, with more losses and a considerably weaker schedule than WashU, remain in the top 10? 

Colby is 10-8.  Illinois Wesleyan is 8-8.  Carnegie Mellon is 9-6.  Rochester is 11-5, but played a pretty weak non-UAA schedule and are just 2-3 in the UAA.  Wash U. is a very good team that has done well against a pretty good but by no means great schedule, and they've been rewarded with a very high national ranking that will get higher this week.  I can't see how you can complain about that. 

And BTW, St. Thomas' win over Occidental was also at a neutral site halfway across the country, 2 hours (in traffic) from Oxy, and is Oxy's only loss to a D3 team so far this season.  Good but not great?  Maybe, but they look better to me than any wins on WUSTL's schedule so far.

[Ralph Turner]

Could Mississippi College possibly break into the top 5?

Possibly?  Sure; it all depends on how the voters feel about St. Thomas' loss to 13-3 St. John's.  UST was 81 points (= 3.25 placements) ahead of MC last week, and the Choctaws didn't do anything special in beating Louisiana Coll. and U. Ozarks.  I think they'll be close at #5/#6.

They are on a 15 game win streak.  Amherst is the only team that has more.  True LC and the Ozarks aren't the best teams in the world,  but there is not at team anywhere that plays a top 25 team every game. 

Balls, I would say that MC has played six quality games this year.

They caught UMHB early in the season in the Golden Dome.  The road trip to Abilene was a solid road trip, 2 more games.  The Westmont Tourney was 2 more, altho' the JHU team that you beat was not much better than McMurry by my friends' assessments who saw both in Baltimore in November.  They meet the challenge of a UT-Dallas team still in the shadow of their D1 win.  That is 6.

I will give you 7 for the win at HPU, the 4th game of an 11-day road trip to California and on the way back from Sul Ross St.

The highest ranking that I have seen for a Men's ASC team is McMurry in 2000 at #4 in week #13.  And those Top 4 were in the Calvin Sectional that year.

I would take it easy.  McMurry fan Finnman thought the 2000 and 2001 versions of the Choctaws were better.  I recommend that you lie low until you have gotten thru the Great Lakes, where you have never won a post-season game before!  I would love for the Chocs to go to the Final Four.  We need the props for the ASC. 

[David Collinge]

There's no disgrace in being ranked #5 or #6, as MC will be this week, or #10 or thereabouts like Wash U.  It always puzzles me when a ranking at such an elite level can be seen as a sign of disrespect.

And I agree with Ralph about wishing for deep tournament runs in lieu of high rankings.  After all, Wooster has been in the top 10 since I was in junior high school (well, almost ) and they have one measly disappointing third-place banner to show for it.

[balls a dunkin]

There's no disgrace in being ranked #5 or #6, as MC will be this week, or #10 or thereabouts like Wash U.  It always puzzles me when a ranking at such an elite level can be seen as a sign of disrespect.

And I agree with Ralph about wishing for deep tournament runs in lieu of high rankings.  After all, Wooster has been in the top 10 since I was in junior high school (well, almost ) and they have one measly disappointing third-place banner to show for it.

I wasn't trying to cause a stink.  You are exactly right that there is no disgrace being a #5/#6.  That is what I am asking.  With St. Thomas  and Whittenberg losing I just wondered if we could break into the top 5.  I really figured we would move to #6.

Could Mississippi College possibly break into the top 5?

Possibly?  Sure; it all depends on how the voters feel about St. Thomas' loss to 13-3 St. John's.  UST was 81 points (= 3.25 placements) ahead of MC last week, and the Choctaws didn't do anything special in beating Louisiana Coll. and U. Ozarks.  I think they'll be close at #5/#6.

They are on a 15 game win streak.  Amherst is the only team that has more.  True LC and the Ozarks aren't the best teams in the world,  but there is not at team anywhere that plays a top 25 team every game. 

Balls, I would say that MC has played six quality games this year.

They caught UMHB early in the season in the Golden Dome.  The road trip to Abilene was a solid road trip, 2 more games.  The Westmont Tourney was 2 more, altho' the JHU team that you beat was not much better than McMurry by my friends' assessments who saw both in Baltimore in November.  They meet the challenge of a UT-Dallas team still in the shadow of their D1 win.  That is 6.

I will give you 7 for the win at HPU, the 4th game of an 11-day road trip to California and on the way back from Sul Ross St.

The highest ranking that I have seen for a Men's ASC team is McMurry in 2000 at #4 in week #13.  And those Top 4 were in the Calvin Sectional that year.

I would take it easy.  McMurry fan Finnman thought the 2000 and 2001 versions of the Choctaws were better.  I recommend that you lie low until you have gotten thru the Great Lakes, where you have never won a post-season game before!  I would love for the Chocs to go to the Final Four.  We need the props for the ASC. 

Or what,  the McMurry D3 Mafia gonna take a karma point from me!

[golden_dome]

There's no disgrace in being ranked #5 or #6, as MC will be this week, or #10 or thereabouts like Wash U.  It always puzzles me when a ranking at such an elite level can be seen as a sign of disrespect.

And I agree with Ralph about wishing for deep tournament runs in lieu of high rankings.  After all, Wooster has been in the top 10 since I was in junior high school (well, almost ) and they have one measly disappointing third-place banner to show for it.

David,
   I agree with you there. There is very little that separates the top ten teams and I don't think anyone can say with certainty that one is better than the other just because we don't have the opportunity to see everyone play. It is an honor just to get your name up there with so many good DIII teams and utimately the tournament separates everyone anyway.

Balls, I would say that MC has played six quality games this year.

They caught UMHB early in the season in the Golden Dome.  The road trip to Abilene was a solid road trip, 2 more games.  The Westmont Tourney was 2 more, altho' the JHU team that you beat was not much better than McMurry by my friends' assessments who saw both in Baltimore in November.  They meet the challenge of a UT-Dallas team still in the shadow of their D1 win.  That is 6.

I will give you 7 for the win at HPU, the 4th game of an 11-day road trip to California and on the way back from Sul Ross St.

The highest ranking that I have seen for a Men's ASC team is McMurry in 2000 at #4 in week #13.  And those Top 4 were in the Calvin Sectional that year.

I would take it easy.  McMurry fan Finnman thought the 2000 and 2001 versions of the Choctaws were better.  I recommend that you lie low until you have gotten thru the Great Lakes, where you have never won a post-season game before!  I would love for the Chocs to go to the Final Four.  We need the props for the ASC. 

Ralph,
   I would agree with the six good wins but I think that is a good thing, few teams have that many right now. I share the same opinion of Johns Hopkins being similiar to McMurry after seeing them but they are still a Top 25 team right now. I have seen more quality teams in the league this year than ever with 5 or 6 capable of winning the ASC tournament.

I saw Finnman's post on the ASC board but I just don't agree with him. I watched both teams and think this is the best team we have ever had but the players still have to prove it on the court. I am thinking way to far ahead here but I hope we don't have to go to a GL sectional, it would be nice to host one. But if we do win a GL game we would be the first ASC team to do so and would certainly raise the conference a notch or two. I hope our guys can make it happen.

[Ralph Turner]

...
Or what,  the McMurry D3 Mafia gonna take a karma point from me!

No, balls, I won't smite your karma for that.  I am glad to present my perspective on how good we are.

I want us (the ASC) to be credible.  I would love for MC to go undefeated until McMurry beats them in the Tourney Finals.  GiveMC a Pool C.  Send McMurry west.  Let the 23-1 South Region Chocs host a first round series.  That would be my hopes. 

In the NCAA's, I bleed ASC!

[hasanova]

Guilford (13-2, 7-2 ODAC) went 2-1 this week since debuting at #20 in the rankings.  Wednesday night's 72-68 loss was to a very hot Roanoke team on the road and then the Quakers rebounded with weekend wins over Bridgewater (VA) and Eastern Mennonite.  How do you think the January 17 loss will affect Guilford's spot in the Top 25? 

[gordonmann]

The loss to Roanoke will unquestionably hurt the Quakers. 

There are very few situations where a loss does not impact Top 25 rankings (loss to a higher ranked team, loss on the road in the WIAC) and this isn't any of those situations.  Roanoke had been playing better before they lost to Hampden-Sydney, but is still just 8-8 and 4-5 in the ODAC.

The other thing that hurts Guilford is that one of their best wins (Averett) has lost 5 of 7.  The fact that it took the Quakers so long to get into the Top 25 despite the red hot start suggests voters were in a "wait and see" mode with Guilford.  If that was the case, the voters may not have much patience for losing a game to a .500 conference opponent.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

My opinion isn't very good on this sort of thing, but it seems to me that Guilford's fate is up in the air.  A loss so near the bottom of the rankings can be trouble for a team, but at the same time, voters often take into account these games.  It will all depend on who voted for Guilford and how well the other teams below them have performed in the eyes of the voters.  There are some teams that were not yet on the poll, but getting votes who did very well this week.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

It may have been done before, but I am just wondering is too much to ask to get links for teams that recieved votes for the top 25, not just the ones in the top 25.  Just curious.  I would just find it easier to use the site if I could easily access teams that are in the "26th" spot and find out why. Instead of clicking a region then clicking a team.  It would be easier for a user.  Its probably not easier on the d3hoops side.

[hasanova]

gordonmann and Hoops Fan - thanks for your input.  I understand your logic and had thought along the same lines myself.  We'll see, but I personally hope (and believe) the Quakers should still be in the Top 25 after today's poll.  Peace 

[diehardfan]

It may have been done before, but I am just wondering is too much to ask to get links for teams that recieved votes for the top 25, not just the ones in the top 25.  Just curious.  I would just find it easier to use the site if I could easily access teams that are in the "26th" spot and find out why. Instead of clicking a region then clicking a team.  It would be easier for a user.  Its probably not easier on the d3hoops side.

Wheaton is incidentally 26th cause we are awesome. We might end up being higher this week though, so you can find out why then.

On a more serious note, I would really like that too... I have that thought all the time. But there's all sorts of functionality that I'd like to see added into the schedules that I would use and probably no one else would... because I am really, really weird.

[Pat Coleman]

DHF, throw me some ideas via e-mail. Our new partnership may give us a little more flexibility here.