Top 25 talk

[golden_dome]

There are six teams with four or more losses (more than MHB's 3 losses).  I don't know much about the ASC, but most might argue that the OAC (Ohio Northern at 15-4), CCIW (Carthage at 13-5), WIAC (La Crosse at 13-6) and the UAA (NYU at 14-4) are tougher to get through than the ASC.  Occidental (12-4, member of the SCIAC) has two losses against non-D3 opponents, and Puget Sound (14-4, member of the NWC) just dropped 8 spots after consecutive conference losses.  Not sure if it's the conference strength that is holding them down.  I'm not one to determine that.  But, on the conference note, against the other "big dogs" in the conference, they got blown out at Mississippi College and also lost to Texas-Dallas (along with the loss to LeTourneau).

I would definitely agree about the OAC, CCIW, WIAC and UAA being premiere leagues right now, but the ASC is getting better. To be fair, I saw UMHB at MC and they were very bad that night but I thought at the time it was just an awful night for them and not a bad team. They are talented.

I would probably vote them ahead of Puget Sound, UW-Lacrosse, Bates, Guilford and New York. UMHB's three losses are at least to teams with winning records.

Lacrosse has six losses with three coming against teams with losing records. Puget Sound is coming off back to back losses to .500 teams. Bates, Guilford and New York all lost last week and don't have any really big wins between them.

I realize these are all very good teams and I don't want to take anything away from them. This season there seems to be very little separation between the best DIII teams and even less among teams from 15-35, but I think UMHB has had a better season to date than some who are ranked.

[Ralph Turner]

I think that UMHB deserves a Top 25 when they have run the table of the ASC West.  Their victories over McMurry and HSU occurred in Belton, which is a very "Cru-friendly" venue!    UMHB is 9-1 at home; 5-2 on the road.

If UMHB can win the Abilene trip on the last weekend, then they are about the 20th-25th best team in the country, IMHO.

McMurry saw JHU in Baltimore in their opening weekend.  McMurry lost its starting point guard in the first 20 seconds of the Rowan game!  (JHU beat Immaculata by 13; the next night McMurry beat Immaculata by 14.)   Rowan edged McM by 5 and then Rowan lost to JHU by two.  JHU did not impress anyone.  A friend of mine predicted that Mississippi College would defeat JHU by double digits after seeing the two teams within 2 weeks of each other.  In this part of the country, that is part of the impetus to put UMHB in the Top 25.

That McMurry starting point guard, Robert Moreno, came back to start the Sul Ross game last Thursday.  He is working himself back into shape. 

[golden_dome]

I think that UMHB deserves a Top 25 when they have run the table of the ASC West.  Their victories over McMurry and HSU occurred in Belton, which is a very "Cru-friendly" venue!    UMHB is 9-1 at home; 5-2 on the road.

If UMHB can win the Abilene trip on the last weekend, then they are about the 20th-25th best team in the country, IMHO.

If they can win out there is no question they should be ranked in my mind. But like I said, I know the teams at the bottom of the Top 25 and those receiving votes are very close. And I am not sure there is much difference in the Top Ten teams and everyone else. I just would have expected the win over VWU to carry a bit more weight than it did.

I am not sure but I can't remember UMHB being ranked in the Top 25. I know it is harder for voters to rank teams when there is not a history there for fear of being duped.

[Ralph Turner]

I think that UMHB deserves a Top 25 when they have run the table of the ASC West.  Their victories over McMurry and HSU occurred in Belton, which is a very "Cru-friendly" venue!    UMHB is 9-1 at home; 5-2 on the road.

If UMHB can win the Abilene trip on the last weekend, then they are about the 20th-25th best team in the country, IMHO.

If they can win out there is no question they should be ranked in my mind. But like I said, I know the teams at the bottom of the Top 25 and those receiving votes are very close. And I am not sure there is much difference in the Top Ten teams and everyone else. I just would have expected the win over VWU to carry a bit more weight than it did.

I am not sure but I can't remember UMHB being ranked in the Top 25. I know it is harder for voters to rank teams when there is not a history there for fear of being duped.

Remember, VWC's All-American Brandon Adair was sick for the UMHB game!

[Pat Coleman]

Would've been nice if UMHB would've saved us from having to rank UT-Dallas. They had their shot.

[Greek Tragedy]

I just would have expected the win over VWU to carry a bit more weight than it did.

It did...for VWU.  They dropped 5 spots and 124 points! lol    You also have to remember that MHB went into that game just 4-3 and they weren't going to jump into the Top 25 with a 5-3 record.

True, La Crosse has three losses against sub .500 teams.  They choked and blew a double-digit second half lead to Carleton, and those losses to WIAC foes River Falls (who actually had been playing pretty well at the time) and Eau Claire are head scratchers.  But, you also have to look at who they have BEATEN.  Oshkosh (12th at the time), St. Thomas (top 5 at the time, though without All-American Rosefelts), Whitewater (when they were actually ranked in the top 10), and Platteville (13th? at the time).  So, you can't look at just the losses.  I know Whitewater and Platteville have fallen off the map, but St. Thomas is still up there and Oshkosh is actually better.

[David Collinge]

I am not sure but I can't remember UMHB being ranked in the Top 25. I know it is harder for voters to rank teams when there is not a history there for fear of being duped.

UMHB as not cracked the top 25 in the eight year history of the men's poll.  They have appeared in the "others receiving votes" category four times, all of them this season.

[golden_dome]

Would've been nice if UMHB would've saved us from having to rank UT-Dallas. They had their shot.

That we can agree on. They are in the Top 25 right now with a win in that game I think.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Without passing judgment on either side, but it seems to me that those who are giving Amherst's schedule the benefit of the doubt should be giving MHB the same consideration.  And 16 votes means that maybe some of them are.

[golden_dome]

True, La Crosse has three losses against sub .500 teams.  They choked and blew a double-digit second half lead to Carleton, and those losses to WIAC foes River Falls (who actually had been playing pretty well at the time) and Eau Claire are head scratchers.  But, you also have to look at who they have BEATEN.  Oshkosh (12th at the time), St. Thomas (top 5 at the time, though without All-American Rosefelts), Whitewater (when they were actually ranked in the top 10), and Platteville (13th? at the time).  So, you can't look at just the losses.  I know Whitewater and Platteville have fallen off the map, but St. Thomas is still up there and Oshkosh is actually better.

They have two wins over Top Ten teams which is impressive, but they have three terrible losses and six total. They have also lost two of their last four. I can't consider Platteville and Whitewater because they are not receiving votes anymore. Like Pat said in reference to Aurora's win over then #14 North Central,

Keith -- that was then, emphasis added. Where is NCC now? That's all that matters.

I think you can say UMHB had their chance at the Top 25 when they lost to UTD, but did LaCrosse have their chance when they lost to Carleton, River Falls and Eau Claire? UTD is still 14-5 and I think they are still the only DIII men's team with a DI win.

[golden_dome]

Discussing the merits of UMHB made me think of a question I had earlier this week for Top 25 voters. I can't remember if I read it here or heard it on hoopsville, but someone said they considered who would win on a neutral court when ranking teams.

Do most voters give that a lot of consideration?  In my opinion that should be considered after more measurable criteria like won/loss record, strength of schedule, quality wins and bad losses. Although I think it is necessary sometimes to separate close teams, I would be hesitant because that brings in bias, particularly in DIII when it is hard to see all the top teams play. Then you are voting on what you think rather what you see on paper.

Just my opinion but I was interested in what voters used to come up with their rankings?

[old_hooper]

Rhode Island College has a D1 victory over Iona, so UTD is not the only one this year.

[plattbacker]

and imho, Aurora could play with the WIAC on a nuetral court

Keith, how many times have you seen Aurora and WIAC teams play?  Exactly.  It sounds like you are watching the stat sheets because I saw the Aurora/Edgewood game, and Aurora got beat by the better team.  Edgewood is playing more and more like a WIAC team (which shouldn't be a surprise because their coach coached in the WIAC), but they just don't have the overall talent right now to compete on a nightly basis with WIAC teams, neather does Aurora.     

Over the past few years, I've seen all the teams in both conferences, and there is no comparison.  Aurora would be lucky to be in the middle of the WIAC.   

Maybe Aurora should play the WIAC teams like other NathCon teams to really see how they match up.  I guess we'll never know because I don't see them scheduling WIAC competition.  Get over it, Aurora is lucky to even be in the top 20, and they certainly do not deserve to be in the top 10 until they start playing some tougher teams.  The voters are doing a good job, so quit complaining about their ranking. 

[golden_dome]

Rhode Island College has a D1 victory over Iona, so UTD is not the only one this year.

I did not see that. Rhode Island gets a shot at home against Amherst tonight? Does anyone know if that game will have a video feed.

[smedindy]

No, that's not correct. Iona lost to the University of Rhode Island.

http://www.iona.edu/gaels/mbasketball/0607/ion1128.htm