Top 25 talk

[Greek Tragedy]

My only question was whether or not UW-Stevens Point was a tier above Wash U, Augie, and Elmhurst (since I did not see UW-SP this year) - and I suspected they were not since Augie only lost by 3 at Stevens Point - and Wash U answered that question Friday night. 

That's not necessarily true.  I remember seeing Aurora for the first time when they lost to WLC and they looked horrible.  I basically ripped them pretty good for that in a Top 25 board post and later, Sager, I think, kind of said that I shouldn't be too critical of just that ONE performance and they were much better than that.  Sager saw them against Dominican and they looked pretty good.  If you ask any Pointer fan, and getting their 100% truthful, though a little bias, opinion, I'm sure they will tell you that Friday night's game was thee worst shooting performance of the year.  So, I definitely wouldn't say that Point was that bad.  Going into the game, they actually had a better record (loss-wise) than the two national championship games.  Does that mean they were better?  No.  But, to say that Point wasn't at or above that Elmhurst, Augie, Washington U. tier based on what Washington U. did on Friday, doesn't really give justice to Point.  It was by far their worst game, but credit does go to Washington U. for their efforts.  I don't want to take anything away from them.  Not many teams are going to win when one of your stars go 1-11 from the field and the team coughs the ball up 12 times when you average just 8 and shoot 37% when you average 50+% and shoot some 22% from 3 when you average 42% or whatever.

Anyway, it was a bad game played at the worst time...unfortunately, it happens.  There is always talk throughout the year when a premiere team loses to a team they aren't supposed to and posters say, "Oops, that was a real bad game, oh well...move on."  Well, Point just happened to do that in the tourney and they can't move on!  OK, I'm done ranting! lol 

[Titan Q]

But, to say that Point wasn't at or above that Elmhurst, Augie, Washington U. tier based on what Washington U. did on Friday, doesn't really give justice to Point. 

What I said was that Stevens Point was not in a tier above Wash U, Augie, and Elmhurst...they were dead even.  I base this off of the entire season, not just one game.  Augustana plays the Pointers to 3 points at Stevens Point, leading for 30 minutes...Elmhurst beats UW-Oshkosh...UW-Oshkosh splits with Stevens Point...Augustana beats Wash U...Wash U beats Stevens Point...Elmhurst drills Augustana once and lose two tight ones vs AC. 

Plenty of evidence to lead us to believe that those teams were all very even and that Stevens Point was no better than Wash U or Augustana or Elmhurst.

[Titan Q]

I did not see Stevens Point this year, but from what I understand, they did not have a big horse down low.  Usually the great WIAC teams have a 6-6 or 6-7 stud (usually multiple) that can dominate in the low post. 

It is just very hard to get to Salem without that low post presence.  Lack of post presence is the reason I never really considered U. of Chicago and Wheaton more than top 15-20 teams, despite how good their perimeter game was.  I believe all four teams heading to the Final Four have a good big guy, correct?  Very few teams have ever won a national championship without a solid low post guy(s).

[Ralph Turner]

I did not see Stevens Point this year, but from what I understand, they did not have a big horse down low.  Usually the great WIAC teams have a 6-6 or 6-7 stud (usually multiple) that can dominate in the low post. 

It is just very hard to get to Salem without that low post presence.  Lack of post presence is the reason I never really considered U. of Chicago and Wheaton more than top 15-20 teams, despite how good their perimeter game was.  I believe all four teams heading to the Final Four have a good big guy, correct?  Very few teams have ever won a national championship without a solid low post guy(s).

Which is why we don't make it there from Texas/ASC.  We just don't grow them that big down here.

Bob, I think that D3hoops.com has had a big leveling effect and that it will continue to "level" as we get routine video-streaming of numerous games.

[Titan Q]

I did not see Stevens Point this year, but from what I understand, they did not have a big horse down low.  Usually the great WIAC teams have a 6-6 or 6-7 stud (usually multiple) that can dominate in the low post. 

It is just very hard to get to Salem without that low post presence.  Lack of post presence is the reason I never really considered U. of Chicago and Wheaton more than top 15-20 teams, despite how good their perimeter game was.  I believe all four teams heading to the Final Four have a good big guy, correct?  Very few teams have ever won a national championship without a solid low post guy(s).

Which is why we don't make it there from Texas/ASC.  We just don't grow them that big down here.

Bob, I think that D3hoops.com has had a big leveling effect and that it will continue to "level" as we get routine video-streaming of numerous games.

Ralph, you would know better than I, but is it more that the Texas teams just prefer a different style -- a more guard-oriented, up-tempo type style?  Certainly there are plenty of 6-6/6-7 kids to go around down there, right?

IWU has played Trinity (Tx) twice in the last 3 years and Trinity is a very "Midwestern" team -- good post players, solid halfcourt offense, strong defense, etc.  Head coach Pat Cunningham is a Midwestern guy of course (former assistant as Illinois State, head coach at Manchester and U. of Chicago), so I guess that it should be no surprise that his Tigers play just like a CCIW or WIAC team.  Do the ASC and other D3 Texas teams just prefer to play a different style of basketball??

[Mr. Ypsi]

I did not see Stevens Point this year, but from what I understand, they did not have a big horse down low.  Usually the great WIAC teams have a 6-6 or 6-7 stud (usually multiple) that can dominate in the low post. 

It is just very hard to get to Salem without that low post presence.  Lack of post presence is the reason I never really considered U. of Chicago and Wheaton more than top 15-20 teams, despite how good their perimeter game was.  I believe all four teams heading to the Final Four have a good big guy, correct?  Very few teams have ever won a national championship without a solid low post guy(s).

Which is why we don't make it there from Texas/ASC.  We just don't grow them that big down here.

Bob, I think that D3hoops.com has had a big leveling effect and that it will continue to "level" as we get routine video-streaming of numerous games.

That has got to be an all-time first - a Texan claiming they DON'T grow them big!!

[mark_reichert]

Which is why we don't make it there from Texas/ASC.  We just don't grow them that big down here.

Or is it that any that big don't play Division III ball?

[Ralph Turner]

Greetings Titan, I think the best typical midwestern style big man that we had this year was Ryan Burgart from UMHB.

I think that the two previous Midwestern style big men in our conference were Tommy Stolhandske from Texas Lutheran and Travis Tennison from McMurry.

Stolhandske was a Jostens finalist in 2005.

Tennison played at D2 Incarnate Word in San Antonio, where he and his family moved when his wife got a great job in San Antonio.  (We have a lot of non-traditional students who are getting their education at McMurry.)

Tennison's stats in D2 this year.
## Player              GP-GS  Min--Avg  FG-FGA   Pct 3FG-FGA   Pct  FT-FTA   Pct  Off Def  Tot  Avg  PF FO   A  TO Blk Stl  Pts  Avg
42 Travis Tennison.... 21-2   304 14.5  50-81   .617   0-0    .000  23-40   .575   35  54   89  4.2  58  2   6  23   2   8  123  5.9

On the ASC board, MissColl SID Chris Brooks helped Dave McHugh with the Lincoln-Guilford game.  Chris said that the refs in the  VWC-MissColl game were letting 6'0" guards push 6'8" Timothy Broomfield 5-10 feet off the block when he had established position.  That is unheard of in ASC-style officiating.

As for Trinity, Coach Cunningham can recruit midwestern style players to Trinity.  My thoughts are that Coach Cunningham uses Trinity's academic reputation to find national players who have "weak D1 to D2 talent" players who have 1400 SAT's.  These players look at playing in D1 or D2 at "somewhere local university" or getting an education at the #1 West Region ranked Master's Level University and play D3 ball.

Perhaps, when we can get several years of videostreaming, then we can get some exposure for our referees to permit that style of play.  Other than that, to that response on the ASC board, Gray Fox (a SCIAC expatriate living in Dallas) said that this was the "perfect storm".

Mr Ypsi, of course, "big"! 

[Ralph Turner]

Which is why we don't make it there from Texas/ASC.  We just don't grow them that big down here.

Or is it that any that big don't play Division III ball?

Mark, I honestly think that we don't have the 6'6" gym rats that we see across the Midwest.  We do have a lot of 6'1" gym rats.

[golden_dome]

Ralph, you would know better than I, but is it more that the Texas teams just prefer a different style -- a more guard-oriented, up-tempo type style?  Certainly there are plenty of 6-6/6-7 kids to go around down there, right?

IWU has played Trinity (Tx) twice in the last 3 years and Trinity is a very "Midwestern" team -- good post players, solid halfcourt offense, strong defense, etc.  Head coach Pat Cunningham is a Midwestern guy of course (former assistant as Illinois State, head coach at Manchester and U. of Chicago), so I guess that it should be no surprise that his Tigers play just like a CCIW or WIAC team.  Do the ASC and other D3 Texas teams just prefer to play a different style of basketball??

Titan,
  I really don't think it is as much about the players as it is the style of play which tends to be far less physical. I'm not saying we never get those kind of games because every game is different, but it is definitely not the norm.

   To put in perspective, that was the most physical game I have seen MC play in all season but there were just five combined free throws shot in the first half and nine in the first 30 minutes for both teams. 13 of the game's 22 total free throw attempts came in the final ten minutes. The officials let pretty much anything go.

For a reference, in the ASC's seven tournament games held at Mississippi College, teams combined to shoot 52 free throws each game. It's just a different brand of basketball.

We do have big kids down here, but they play in games all season where officials don't let near as much go. In my opinion it is very hard to just play more physical when you have been conditioned all season that certain things are fouls.

Ralph mentioned 6'8" guard Timothy Broomfield. The kid is a great talent but he is not a banger. The VWC smaller and more physical guards got up under him all night and just walked him off the block. That is just not allowed down here.

[Titan Q]

Regarding how the officials call the game, in the CCIW (and I suspect in other leagues too), that tends to be different from game to game.  One night they let a ton of banging go and 3 nights later both teams are in the double bonus with 10:00 to play in each half.

That said, every night out in the CCIW - no matter who is playing - it is extremely physical.  It's like that with most of the top West/Midwest/Great Lakes teams.  From this conversation and the one on the ASC board, it sounds like ASC games are much more "finesse."  I don't think it is the officiating that has to be adjusted to come tournament time, but rather the style (I think we agree Chris?).  When you are used to opposing teams playing a finesse style and then you get that tough, physical matchup it is just very hard to adjust.

[Stout survivor]

UWSP has everything but a dominate post. Krull is good but will settle for outside shots, if Point has a Joe Werner, Kerry Gibson, Jeff Skemp or one of any of the 6'8" to 7' guys that the rest have it would help take some pressure of the outside shooting.  They have some bigger post on the bench but they are role players (maybe due to the system and not the player)

I have enjoyed playing at Point for the past 4 years and the difference between this years team and the national champ teams is when the shoots are not falling they stall.  Kaslow would get them through those shooting droughts a couple years ago, I am sure it is something they are working on for next year.

Look out for Wooster, shoot as well as the other teams and have that inside game to PLUS a solid point guard to run the show which is so important which any big man can tell you, it is not just throwing the post pass but how you throw it and solid guards can do that.

[Titan Q]

Which is why we don't make it there from Texas/ASC.  We just don't grow them that big down here.

Or is it that any that big don't play Division III ball?

Mark, I honestly think that we don't have the 6'6" gym rats that we see across the Midwest.  We do have a lot of 6'1" gym rats.

Can't afford to let the good ones get away to Midwest schools...

50 •• Troy Ruths F 6-6 235 Jr. Sugar Land, Texas (Stephen F. Austin)


(Wash U's center -- one of the best low post players in Division III.)

[golden_dome]

Regarding how the officials call the game, in the CCIW (and I suspect in other leagues too), that tends to be different from game to game.  One night they let a ton of banging go and 3 nights later both teams are in the double bonus with 10:00 to play in each half.

That said, every night out in the CCIW - no matter who is playing - it is extremely physical.  It's like that with most of the top West/Midwest/Great Lakes teams.  From this conversation and the one on the ASC board, it sounds like ASC games are much more "finesse."  I don't think it is the officiating that has to be adjusted to come tournament time, but rather the style (I think we agree Chris?).  When you are used to opposing teams playing a finesse style and then you get that tough, physical matchup it is just very hard to adjust.

I definitely agree in respect to officiating. There's not anything wrong with it but it is different. In MC's three ASC tournament games there were nearly 60 free throws shot each game. In the two regional games against Occidental and Maryville, there were about 45 total free throws each game. Against Virginia Wesleyan there were just nine in the first 30 minutes and 22 total, and that is in a game I thought was much more physical that MC's previous tournament games this year. That is a huge difference.

I would say it is more about speed and quickness in this part of the country but we do have big, physical kids in the ASC. But in a very physical game with lots of banging around in the post, you can count on about 50 total trips to the free throw line.

[Stout survivor]

The refs are inconsistant from game to game but this is MENS basketball and there should be so contact. Strength should be a factor as long as the player is fighting for a spot.   I was told that a knee or forarm was coll till the player caught the ball then defend the basket and give up the spot.