Top 25 talk

[Hugenerd]

Hosting Sites are posted:

http://www.ncaa.com/uploadedFiles/Sports/Basketball_(M)/BR-08D3MBB.pdf

Hope, Ursinus, WashU, and Plattsburgh.

[John Gleich]

Why the jump in the number of losses between '06 and '07? I don't know, but I'm interested in any hypotheses.

Well, there are more bids, thus there are more teams playing who have more losses.  These teams then have an opportunity to win against a team with fewer losses, and apparently they have done so. 

[HopeConvert]

Again, I'm not referring to tournament losses. I'm referring to regular season losses. There are still only 10 teams in the top 10, and they've suffered more aggregate in-season losses over the past two years.

[John Gleich]

Ah, I understand now...  I think there's just more parity in D3.  There isn't a dominant team this year, that's for sure, and there wasn't last year either.  There are (or were) about 20 teams at roughly the same level, so these teams beat each other.  In a conference like the WIAC, the top teams beat each other up, which is normal, but they also each lost to teams out of conference too.  I haven't done substantial research into this, but I would imaging this is the same for other teams in the top 10.  I mean, you've got 5 and 6 loss teams in the top 10.  When you look at the REST of the top 25, there are others with 5 and 6 losses, and fewer with only 3 and 4.  It's just much more even the last couple of years, I think.

now, if you're inquiring about the reason for this, I think it has to do with how teams and players are preparing... they say the world is getting smaller, I think the same is true in the US, with athletics.  Players are able to compete against each other in summer camps and AAU, etc.

[Titan Q]

I've posted this before, but I continue to feel strongly that the WIAC has come back to the pack in a big way now that redshirting has been banned.  Former UW-Stevens Point head man Dick Bennett pointed to this as well in a radio interview he did early in the year.  The feasibility of redshirting (for non-medical reasons) was a huge advantage for the WIAC.

For a number of years, I think the WIAC was by far the best league in Division III.   The last three years or so, I believe there have been better leagues - the CCIW in 2005-06 (Illinois Wesleyan, Augustana, Elmhurst, and North Central were powers), and the UAA the last two. 

The WIAC is still right in the middle of the "best conference" conversation with its depth and parity, but the league isn't producing dominant teams ala Bo Ryan's Platteville squads, the Eau Claire team that got to Salem in 2000 and lost without their best player (injury), or the back-to-back Stevens Point teams of 2004 and 2005.  This year, the WIAC tournament teams were eliminated by two IIAC teams - Loras won @ Whitewater and Buena Vista beat Stevens Point on a neutral court.  A few years ago, that just would not have happened.

The WIAC coming back to the pack is one factor I'd point to in the recent parity in Division III.

[David Collinge]

HOW THEY FARED (postseason edition)       
      
#   1   Hope (25-3) received a bye, def. #20 Capital 92-72, and hosts Ohio Wesleyan Fri.
#   2   UW-Whitewater (24-5) lost to Loras 71-70 season complete
#   3   Amherst (24-3) received a bye, def. John Jay 96-74, and plays Richard Stockton Fri. at Plattsburgh St.
#   4   Centre (26-3) def. Franklin 75-61 and lost to Ohio Wesleyan 82-65 season complete
#   5   Brandeis (22-5) def. Lasell 80-59, def. Bowdoin 68-53, and plays at #7 Plattsburgh St. Fri.
#   6   Augustana (23-6) def. Aurora 72-61 and lost to #11 Washington U. 70-67 (OT) season complete
#   7   Plattsburgh St. (27-2) received a bye, def. King's 83-77 (OT), and hosts #5 Brandeis Fri.
#   8   Guilford (24-5) lost to St. Mary's (MD) 89-77 season complete
#   9   UW-Stevens Point (23-7) def. #22 Chicago 67-53 and lost to Buena Vista 54-53, both at St. Thomas; season complete
#   10   Mass.-Dartmouth (25-4) received a bye and lost to Coast Guard 50-47 season complete
#   11   Washington U. (21-6) def. #17 Wooster 79-74 at Augustana, won at #6 Augustana 70-67 (OT), and hosts Buena Vista Fri.
#   12   Mary Hardin-Baylor (26-4) def. Fontbonne 65-62 at Millsaps and lost at #14 Millsaps 57-56 season complete
#   13   Rochester (22-5) def. Middlebury 56-43, def. Penn St.-Behrend 65-56, and plays Coast Guard Fri. at Ursinus
#   14   Millsaps (27-3) def. #19 Maryville (TN) 80-72, def. #12 Mary Hardin-Baylor 57-56, and plays St. Mary's (MD) Fri. at Washington U. (St. Louis)
#   15   Lawrence (22-3) lost to Wheaton (IL) 93-83 (OT) at UW-Whitewater; season complete
#   16   Ursinus (27-2) def. Baptist Bible 94-76, def. #21 Virginia Wesleyan 70-64, and hosts Gettysburg Fri.
#   17   Wooster (23-5) lost to #11 Washington U. 79-74 at Augustana; season complete
#   18   St. Thomas (23-5) lost to Buena Vista 72-70 season complete
#   19   Maryville (TN) (24-3) lost at #14 Millsaps 80-72 season complete
#   20   Capital (24-6) def. Bethany 92-70 and lost at #1 Hope 92-72 season complete
#   21   Virginia Wesleyan (23-7) def. Worcester Polytech 80-75 at Ursinus and lost at #16 Ursinus 70-64 season complete
#   22   Chicago (18-8) lost to #9 UW-Stevens Point 67-53 at St. Thomas; season complete
#   23   UW-Platteville (19-7) season complete
#   25   Occidental (22-6) def. Pomona-Pitzer 52-51 and lost at Whitworth 83-75 season complete
#   25   Trinity (CT) (21-7) lost to Coast Guard 70-65 season complete

[LogShow]

8 of the Top 25 remain...should be a exciting sweet 16 and elite 8 weekend!

[Greek Tragedy]

8 of the Top 25 remain...should be a exciting sweet 16 and elite 8 weekend!

Well, unless your team isn't in it! lol...

[LogShow]

8 of the Top 25 remain...should be a exciting sweet 16 and elite 8 weekend!

Well, unless your team isn't in it! lol...

Well my team lost in the conference championship game and didn't deserve an at-large...so I have been making due for 2 weeks now!

[bbaddict]

My team lost in the game before that (right Logs?)  so, I've been living vicariously through Whitworth's success!  It's great that they made it to the Sweet 16, I'm thinking they can beat Wheaton and then, who knows?

[Gregory Sager]

3 of those 8 ranked teams are from the UAA.

No question they were the best league this year. The tournament only confirms that. Who'd have guessed, though, that only Wheaton would be left from the CCIW and no WIAC team left. Amazing.

There were only two CCIW teams in the tourney field, as opposed to four UAA teams, so it's not that hard to believe that the CCIW would be down to one team after the first weekend. The bigger story is that that one team is Wheaton, which tied for second in the CCIW and lost three times to the other #2 team.

I'm still not convinced that the UAA was better than the CCIW this season. I'm lucky enough to live in the same city as a UAA school, so I get to see both leagues every year. The UAA did not look any better, top to bottom, than the CCIW. Yes, Wash U beat Augie on Augie's home floor this weekend ... but, remember, Augie beat Wash U in St. Louis earlier in the year.

[nwhoops1903]

I've posted this before, but I continue to feel strongly that the WIAC has come back to the pack in a big way now that redshirting has been banned.  Former UW-Stevens Point head man Dick Bennett pointed to this as well in a radio interview he did early in the year.  The feasibility of redshirting (for non-medical reasons) was a huge advantage for the WIAC.

A level playing field is a must at the D3 level.  When did the redshirt ban start?

[Hugenerd]

3 of those 8 ranked teams are from the UAA.

No question they were the best league this year. The tournament only confirms that. Who'd have guessed, though, that only Wheaton would be left from the CCIW and no WIAC team left. Amazing.

There were only two CCIW teams in the tourney field, as opposed to four UAA teams, so it's not that hard to believe that the CCIW would be down to one team after the first weekend. The bigger story is that that one team is Wheaton, which tied for second in the CCIW and lost three times to the other #2 team.

I'm still not convinced that the UAA was better than the CCIW this season. I'm lucky enough to live in the same city as a UAA school, so I get to see both leagues every year. The UAA did not look any better, top to bottom, than the CCIW. Yes, Wash U beat Augie on Augie's home floor this weekend ... but, remember, Augie beat Wash U in St. Louis earlier in the year.

Also remember that back when Augie beat WashU (in November), WashU had just lost their starting point guard to a season ending injury.  You have to win them when they count, a win on November 24th against a top caliber team is great, but, when it comes to gauging the top few teams in the country, only the wins in March count.

And when it comes to depth, I think the UAA still has the most impressive resume.  6 of 8 UAA teams have at least 16 wins, and 5 have at least 18 wins.  Only 4 (of 8.) CCIW schools have 16 wins, and 3 have at least 18 wins.  Same goes for the WIAC, Only 4 (of 9) have 16 wins, and 3 have at least 18 wins.  Both the UAA and CCIW had 2 teams with overall losing records, and the WIAC had 5.  If you want to talk about parity within the conference, #5 CMU beat #1 and #2 (Chicago and WashU), #6 NYU and #7 Emory beat Rochester, #8 Case Western was 1 turnover away from beating WashU, and the top 4 were all 1-1 against eachother (except Chicago was 2-0 against Brandeis).

[Titan Q]

Wash U beat Augustana in overtime Saturday.  As I have said all season long, there is no separation there.  Those are two very different but dead-even basketball teams.

Looking at the UAA vs CCIW team-by-team as the standings finished...

1. Chicago (11-3) vs Augustana (11-3)
2. Wash U (10-4) vs IWU (9-5)
2. Brandeis (10-4) vs Wheaton (9-5)
4. Rochester (9-5) vs Elmhurst (8-6)
5. Carnegie Mellon (6-8) vs Carthage (7-7)
6. NYU (6-8) vs North Park (6-8)
7. Emory (3-11) vs North Central (4-10)
8. Case (1-13) vs Millikin (2-12)

I know a couple things:

1) Augustana is better than Chicago.
2) Wash U is better than IWU.

After that, I haven't seen enough of the UAA to know where the advantage goes.  However, I suspect Brandeis vs Wheaton is a push, and I suspect Rochester vs Elmhurst is as well.  (Remember, Elmhurst beat #1 Hope on a neutral floor.)  I'm guessing 5-8 are toss-ups as well.

When you get right down to it, is there really any separation here?

[Titan Q]

If you want to talk about parity within the conference, #5 CMU beat #1 and #2 (Chicago and WashU), #6 NYU and #7 Emory beat Rochester, #8 Case Western was 1 turnover away from beating WashU, and the top 4 were all 1-1 against eachother (except Chicago was 2-0 against Brandeis).

And basically the same can be said in the CCIW...

#5 Carthage beat #1 Augustana and #2 IWU

#6 North Park beat #1 Augustana

#7 North Central swept #2 Wheaton

#8 Millikin lost to #1 Augie by 3


Same kind of parity.