South Region playoffs

[PA_wesleyfan]

Josh

The only way it gets changed is if one or more of the (hosed) coaches get on the committee..... And good luck with that. 

[Josh Bowerman]

Just a point of clarification, PA.   

[PA_wesleyfan]

 Right choice of words Josh!!! The committee definately FUMBLED

[cnusfinest54]

Okay yeah I am a die hard CNU. But I just have a quick question that im sure to get a million answers to.  No one has doubted the fact that UMHB deserves a home game but everyone seems to have a problem with CNU getting a home game.  Now was I surprised that CNU got a home game YES. And yeah they didn't help themselves by losing to NCW but the fact of the matter still remains that a team they beat head to head is ranked higher than them in the playoffs. CNU's only other loss came against a pretty good Rowan team in week one. Both teams finished with identical regional records as well as identical overall marks with the only common opponent being each other, which CNU won. I just don't get the overall argument but maybe someone can take the time to enlighten me.  Now don't get me wrong I still think the Texas teams got the shaft and CNU has a very winnable first round match up. But if an 8-2 UMHB was ranked ahead of a 9-1 Hardin Simmons team for obvious reasons how come UMHB was ranked so far ahead of CNU.

[K-Mack]

Keith, we don't think it's unbelievable.  We think it's unacceptable.

Reason I used the word unbelievable is that people were coming up with all these complicated theories for what happened.

So I said "I don't see what's so unbelievable" about them just using the wrong mileage number and screwing it up from there.

Frankly, the more I look at it, it's just not that bad.

a) It happens every year. Par for the course doesn't make it right, but it should take away some of the initial shock that appears to be lingering for a fifth day now.
b) UMHB could very easily have been seeded behind CNU, possibly even as low as 4 or 5. A 2 seed and a home game is an awful nice reward for a two-loss season, even if No. 2 was against Whitewater.
c) As seeded, they would have met in the second round anyway.
d) It guarantees a first-round winner, not just a first-round loser.

Obviously, it would have been made more sense to avoid the rematch and follow the seeds.

But seriously though, leave the crying and whining for the teams that got screwed out of a playoff spot. You're in.

Unacceptable? Looks to me like accepting it is the only choice any of you have. And the teams don't seem to mind that much.

[K-Mack]

Okay yeah I am a die hard CNU. But I just have a quick question that im sure to get a million answers to.  No one has doubted the fact that UMHB deserves a home game but everyone seems to have a problem with CNU getting a home game.  Now was I surprised that CNU got a home game YES. And yeah they didn't help themselves by losing to NCW but the fact of the matter still remains that a team they beat head to head is ranked higher than them in the playoffs. CNU's only other loss came against a pretty good Rowan team in week one. Both teams finished with identical regional records as well as identical overall marks with the only common opponent being each other, which CNU won. I just don't get the overall argument but maybe someone can take the time to enlighten me.  Now don't get me wrong I still think the Texas teams got the shaft and CNU has a very winnable first round match up. But if an 8-2 UMHB was ranked ahead of a 9-1 Hardin Simmons team for obvious reasons how come UMHB was ranked so far ahead of CNU.

Good question.

I think it has to be the strength of the second loss.

UMHB was No. 17 in the QoWI, CNU 18.
They did play head-to-head, although it was a five-point loss at CNU in Game 1 for UMHB and Game 2 for CNU.

UMHB had a win vs. a regionally-ranked opponent (Hardin-Simmons), as did CNU (UMHB). And if UMHB also got credit for playing an oppoent ranked in a different region and losing, CNU would do the same.

I don't see any other reason why the head-to-head result would be ignored.

You kinda got jobbed, but then again a home game is nice for a two-loss five seed. Don't lose to NCW and I think you're the 2 seed, hands down.

[K-Mack]

"To be the best you've got to beat the best."

That has never been more true (emphasis added/pc) if Mary Hardin-Baylor is to win the national title...

They would likely have to beat...

First Round - No. 6 Hardin-Simmons
Second Round - No. 20 Washington & Jefferson
Quarterfinals - No. 3 Wesley
Semifinals - No. 2 UW-Whitewater
Finals - No. 1 Mount Union

A breeze compared to 2004:

at No. 7 Trinity (Texas) #    W 32-13       
at No. 3 Hardin-Simmons #    W 42-28       
at No. 5 Washington and Jefferson #    W 52-16       
at No. 1 Mount Union #    W 38-35       
vs. No. 2 Linfield # Salem, Va.    L 28-21       

Yeah,
'04 was legendary.

I also think CNU will win Saturday and put up a fight in the second round.

I think the Central/SJU road is pretty tough too:

1st round: No. 9 Central or No. 12 St. John's
2nd round: No. 8 Whitworth or No. 10 Occidental
Quarters: No. 2 UW-Whitewater
Semis: No. 3 Wesley, No. 5 UMHB or No. 6 HSU
Final: No. 1 Mount Union

[K-Mack]

You beat me to the punch, Bill.  Interesting to note who the two South Region representatives are, and where they happen to be from....

We have asked Mohr and Collins (Capital) about being on the committee in the past, and met Dorenkamp at the Stagg Bowl last year. Berezowitz (UWW) used to be on the committee too.

If I'm not mistaken, they have to recuse themselves if they make the playoffs. I'm not sure if that extends to teams and games that affect their conference rivals, but that would make sense. Them being professional enough to be above that would also make sense.

Generally speaking, these coaches want the best for Division III.

I also don't think it's wise for them to hold grudges or try to use influence for anything other that what it is supposed to be used for. I imagine that could come back to bite them some year when they aren't on the committee and someone else does it to them. I'd also bet that doing anything unscrupulous could jeopardize not only that person's future on the committee, but the future and the credibility of anyone else from their school.

You can say I play the company line or whatever, but I think people are way too quick to toss out accusations or come up with conspiracy theories when there are other logical explanations yet to be considered.

I'm not saying the committee could not have done something it can't publicly defend, or can but doesn't want to. But it's also possible they made a silly mistake and it's too late to fix it.

[cnusfinest54]

K-Mack thanks for the info. By no means am I complaining about the hand CNU was dealt. I just couldn't understand with all of the controversy surrounding the seedings and with all of the knowledgeable d 3 posters putting in their 2 cents how that issue never came up.  If you look at it a different way, if UMHB wins their first round game and CNU wins theirs. UMHB will have the luxury of playing a tough conference foe, then play a team that beat them head to head in the regular season (with the same record regional record) in a revenge game at home.  "Not a bad deal for a 2 loss team" that lost the regular season head to head match up, but will be still be guaranteed 2 home games if they win out before the south region title game.  Looking at it that way Hardin Simmons REALLY GOT THE SHAFT IF HEAD TO HEAD GAMES DON'T MATTER. 

[Zmotion10 out on 2]

No complaining here because HSU will get their due on Saturday.  After the loss to UMHB all I have been able to think about is a re-match.  That is because I think we will beat them. I don't care about the rankings. Just wanted to make the playoffs so we could clean the slate and get another shot at the Cru.

[K-Mack]

cnu,
Great point. Let's see if the complaints are defeaning out of the ASC if/when they get a home game against a team that already beat its champion h2h.

[dsc]

Bottom line...

Go Cowboys!!!

[Toby Taff]

Knowing that whoever wins, I still have a team to pull for in the playoffs.  If UMHB wins, I support my alma mater.  If HSU wins, I support my friend Jordan and the miriads of rabid Cowboy faithful i find myself surrounded by day in and out.

That said,

GO CRU!!!

[Ralph Turner]

You beat me to the punch, Bill.  Interesting to note who the two South Region representatives are, and where they happen to be from....

We have asked Mohr and Collins (Capital) about being on the committee in the past, and met Dorenkamp at the Stagg Bowl last year. Berezowitz (UWW) used to be on the committee too.

If I'm not mistaken, they have to recuse themselves if they make the playoffs. I'm not sure if that extends to teams and games that affect their conference rivals, but that would make sense. Them being professional enough to be above that would also make sense.

Generally speaking, these coaches want the best for Division III.

I also don't think it's wise for them to hold grudges or try to use influence for anything other that what it is supposed to be used for. I imagine that could come back to bite them some year when they aren't on the committee and someone else does it to them. I'd also bet that doing anything unscrupulous could jeopardize not only that person's future on the committee, but the future and the credibility of anyone else from their school.

You can say I play the company line or whatever, but I think people are way too quick to toss out accusations or come up with conspiracy theories when there are other logical explanations yet to be considered.

I'm not saying the committee could not have done something it can't publicly defend, or can but doesn't want to. But it's also possible they made a silly mistake and it's too late to fix it.

...which is why I say that the simplest answer to the question is probably the right one.

The NCAA did not include the msn.mappoint.com "shortest distance" database in the selection packets.

If the coaches see the possibililty of the bracket that Pat projected last Saturday night, and Millsaps to UMHB is a "bussable" game, then we see #7 Millsaps to #2 UMHB. We see #4 CMU hosting #5 W&J (great local game and the potential for lots of fan, alum, and student interest) and #3 HSU hosting #6 CNU.

[CNU85]

K-Mack thanks for the info. By no means am I complaining about the hand CNU was dealt. I just couldn't understand with all of the controversy surrounding the seedings and with all of the knowledgeable d 3 posters putting in their 2 cents how that issue never came up.  If you look at it a different way, if UMHB wins their first round game and CNU wins theirs. UMHB will have the luxury of playing a tough conference foe, then play a team that beat them head to head in the regular season (with the same record regional record) in a revenge game at home.  "Not a bad deal for a 2 loss team" that lost the regular season head to head match up, but will be still be guaranteed 2 home games if they win out before the south region title game.  Looking at it that way Hardin Simmons REALLY GOT THE SHAFT IF HEAD TO HEAD GAMES DON'T MATTER. 

Scroll back several pages....I made the point on many boards, inclding this one, and it got me grief and my Karma got "jacked up"...or should that be "jacked down". I made the same exact points but K-Mack wasn't around to  moderate the discussion.