MBB: Southern Collegiate Athletic Conference

[pbrooks3]

Petrel Flyer, I acknowledge that Centre probably can generate a win by more than 10 points over Rhodes.  History, however, dictates that Centre will not try to run up the score, especially if they're comfortably ahead mid way through the 2nd half. 

My OU Sewanee prediction is based on what I saw happen 2 years ago over on the mountain when a far superior Centre team went in there and got their sneakers handed to them.  That game could go either way, but with a young team, OU will find this to be a challenging game.

[Dave84]

well I obviously like your Trinity +20 prediction against Southwestern, but I'd like to point out that regardless of either teams' talent level, this rivalry has been a close one.  It's sad that Coach Raleigh hasn't had a team win the conference or make it to the tourney yet, they have had some pretty good talent come through there the past half decade.  The Bowser class was a good group but couldn't seem to finish in the end.  On that note, Bowser was POY his junior year, which led to his placement on the SCAC 15 yr reunion team.  Nothing against him, because he was a good player, but how could he have been chosen in front of Trinity's Jason Morris?! This just defends my case that we (and SCAC voters) rely too heavily on statistics.  And what baffles me even more is that if we are going by stats alone, Morris is the #10 all-time scorer in the SCAC WITH 3 straight Conference titles and trips to the NCAA's!!!  haha, then again, I could go on forever about Trinity not getting post season love from the voters, haha.

[frank_ezelle]

Dave, I just going off my vague memory with this comment and also it should be noted that like everyone except the Trinity fans, I only get to see Trinity play once or twice a season.  There's no question that Jason Morris was a very good player, but many very good players didn't make the SCAC 15th anniversary team. 

I can't remember if Jason Morris started his freshman year, but my impression is that he was a very good player early in his career which made everyone think that he would just be incredible by his junior and senior year. But, he never really got any better.  That might be because the talent around him was better so he didn't have to do as much in the way of scoring, etc, but I don't remember thinking of him as the one key guy that Millsaps needed to stop.  On a different team, it's quite possible that Jason Morris would have put up the stats that would cause people to think of him as one of the best all-time in the SCAC. 

Let's face it, winning awards and finishing high on the league stat lists is a combination of talent, timing, where you play, and even what style of play your team runs.  It does get back to your argument that stats might figure too heavily in the equation, but when trying to compare players from different eras it is hard to come up with any other solid basis of comparison.

[Dave84]

That is a very good point.  BUT i feel that the winning column should be weighed upon more heavily.  Trinity had 5 solid years (from '01-02 w/ a 2nd place finish to '05-06 with a 12-2 conference record) in a row and 3 consecutive championships without 1 player being named POY of the conference.  There is no doubt in my mind that Sean Devins was the best player in the conference and biggest game changer, but because he didn't put up 15 and 10, he wasn't even considered in the POY.  And to argue further on the Morris issue; an "all-time" team should probably consist of players who made a great impact over a 4 year span.  Morris started for 4 years on a team that dominated the SCAC and managed to consistently score double figures and be a "go to" scorer in clutch situations.  and i totally agree with you on your last comment.  I always felt that 4 or 5 guys from that Trinity team could have been 2,000 point scorers if they were on a lesser team or faster paced team.

sorry, not trying to complain, just striking up conversation during the "basketball down time" of the weekday, haha. 

[Dave84]

oh, and hopefully Millsaps will get some love from this week's top 25!!!

[pbrooks3]

I thought Devins was the league difference maker his senior year. Should have got POY inspite of not having big stats. 

[DPU3619]

I thought Devins was the league difference maker his senior year. Should have got POY inspite of not having big stats. 

I disagree.  Sean Devins was the league difference maker on defense.  That's the reason he won the defensive POTY.  That's the purpose of having such an award.

Aaron Bowser of Southwestern won the POTY that year.  Yet, if I recall, that was the year of the controversy surrounding Russ Churchwell of Oglethorpe not winning the award.  That's right, isn't it?  Led the league in scoring at almost 20 a game and was near the top of the heap in many others. 

I don't recall the exact details surrounding that issue, but I think it was deduced that one coach left him off of his ballot entirely, which gave the award to Bowser.  Seemed rather puzzling that a coach would do that considering Churchwell's dominance for 2 full seasons in our league.  I believe there were a few people who thought one of the coaches in our league may have done that intentionally.

[Ralph Turner]

I, too, remember the Churchwell incident.  He was the offense for Oglethorpe and no one stopped him very well.  I also remember the talk of the coach leaving off the ballot completely.

[frank_ezelle]

As one who was involved in the Churchwell controversy enough that I actually received emails from a few SCAC coaches, I would suggest that it is probably a subject that is best left unvisited.  It did center around the idea that team success is a factor when considering the POY, a idea that is used a lot in picking post season awards.  To the victor goes the spoils.

For what it's worth, Churchwell, Bowser and Devin are 3 of the 13 players selected on the 15th anniversary team.  It was obviously 3 very talented players competing for the POTY honor.

[Dave84]

Oh and I totally agree that those 3 players were tremendous.  And this brings up a great argument as to the emphasis placed on the win column.  Churchwell did not demand the same amount of attention that Devins did offensively.  YES, he scored 20+ a game, etc. etc., but teams wouldn't change their entire strategy because of him.  He was going to shoot and get the ball regardless, because coaches knew that even if he scored 20 or 30 points, his team wasn't able to come out with victories.    now, devins commanded double teams every time he got the ball on the block, which opened up players around him for scoring opportunities.  And when did POY go to the best offensive player statistically, because if I remember correctly, being the player of the year meant that you had the biggest impact in winning games night in and night out.

also, as i recall, eric dickenson was the 2nd leading scorer in the league that year.  I think that really hurt Churchwell's chances at POY, just as the trinity team hurt Devins.

Bowser won it that year because Southwestern surprised everyone by ended the conference season with the #1 seed.....

[spfan22]

when we played trinity we didnt double on the post.. the other players were just too good.. trinity didnt run many sets that utilized Devins in the post.. he would have one on one matchups and stiil sometimes not look to score.. he just wasnt an aggresive offensive player.. I disagree that teams completely changed their defensive principles to adjust to Devins..  despite that fact he was still a great player.. his defense was what teams feared

[pbrooks3]

I thought Devins was the league difference maker his senior year. Should have got POY inspite of not having big stats. 

I disagree.  Sean Devins was the league difference maker on defense.  That's the reason he won the defensive POTY.  That's the purpose of having such an award.

I stirred things up a bit!  Wes Anderson makes a good point about Sean Devins and the other great SCAC players from that season.  From my perspective watching how he controlled the game defensively made him the POY.  Of course, I have a bias in favor of good individual and team defense as opposed to the offensive side of the ball. 

[frank_ezelle]

when we played trinity we didnt double on the post.. the other players were just too good.. trinity didnt run many sets that utilized Devins in the post.. he would have one on one matchups and stiil sometimes not look to score.. he just wasnt an aggresive offensive player.. I disagree that teams completely changed their defensive principles to adjust to Devins..  despite that fact he was still a great player.. his defense was what teams feared

This has come up before with most Trinity fans thinking Devins was a great offensive player and everyone else thinking he wasn't.  Millsaps didn't double up on Devins even in the year that they were playing with a 6'1" post man.  For whatever the reason, Devins was a 6'10" center in a league of 6'6" post players and he never averaged more than 13 ppg.  If he had been averaging the 20 ppg that one would have expected, then he might have been double teamed.

The way I see it, the fact that he is on the 15th Anniversary team is a testament to how well he played on defense because his work on the offensive end was just average.  At least it was average when he played against the undersized Millsaps teams.

[carlweathers]

Saying Sean Devins' work on offense was average is laughable.  Every time his Trinity teams needed a bucket in a tight game, that is where they went.  That wasn't an accident.  Ask Southwestern, the second best team in the SCAC for much of that era.  He shot a high percentage, banged 3's, threw passes, and got to the line and was nearly an 80% ft shooter. 

I believe the undersized Millsaps team you refer to was 03-04.

1st meeting, at Trinity - 19 minutes, 2-3 fg, 5 points, 5 rebounds, but he did hit the all crucial bucket with 5:33 left to make it 61-28 to secure the big win.
2nd meeting, at Millsaps - 32 minutes, 6-13, 18 points, 14 rebounds, 1-1 from 3, in a close game where he was needed to score.  Average?  He scored about 30% of his teams points.  Only Morris was also in double figures for TU.
3rd meeting, at SCAC - 20 minutes, 5-7, 13 points, 6 rebounds, game was never close, Devins ties for high scorer with Morris.

Average numbers?  Perhaps, but a little bit of context does matter.

Using his point average as a method of coming to that conclusion doesn't stand up too well.  Look at the minutes he played.   He never averaged more than 26 minutes a game.  Bet that scoring average would have been higher if Trinity a) had not been so talented across the board and b) had been in closer games so the kid played bigger minutes. 

[frank_ezelle]

That is the year I was referring to and Devins was matched up against 6'1" (at best) Carr Van Brocklin.  Carr was playing center because he was the biggest starter Millsaps had that year (they did have a 6'8" center who would play a few minutes each game).  If anything, Devins numbers against such an extreme mismatch proves my point.

BUT, as I said earlier, this Sean Devins debate has been rehashed over many pages in the past.  He was a great player and a very key player on some great Trinity teams.  Could he have been a great offensive player if Trinity needed him to be?  I'm sure that he could have put up bigger numbers if Trinity had used him more in the offense.  I just never saw the great offensive skills in the limited number of times that I saw him play.  Those of you who saw him more have a different opinion and that's fine with me.