MBB: Southern Collegiate Athletic Conference

[DPU3619]

Wes, curious as to your take on the Trinity team and game on Saturday.  Appears the Old Gold are peaking at the right time and Mr. Moore is playing super b-ball.

Trinity's still a good basketball team.  Especially at home.  Especially when you play them on the night after you were in a grinder in Georgetown.

I think that's a great win for DePauw.  They've suddenly won six in a row.  I'm going to be really interested to get a look at Birmingham on Sunday.  If they keep playing well, that's a big momentum boost before the big showdown with Centre in a couple of weeks. 

Realistically, it's unlikely they'll catch Centre in the conference standings to get 1 seed in the East, but if they keep winning, suddenly Pool C is back in the conversation again.  IF (big if) they finish 5-0 the rest of the way, that gets them to 21-4 headed into the conference tournament.  If they don't lose in the first round, that's at least 22-5, which I think should garner them some attention.

[frank_ezelle]

DePauw will be a strong favorite in 3 of their last 5 (the home games with Rhodes and BSC, and the road game at Sewanee) and closer to 50-50 in the home game with Centre and the road game at OU. 

Oglethorpe is currently tied with DePauw at 8-2.  They have a home game with Sewanee and road games to BSC and Rhodes prior to the big homestand with Centre and DePauw to end the season.  It is starting to look like the loser of the DePauw-OU game on the 24th will get Trinity (or Millsaps) in the first round of the tournament, while the winner of the DePauw-OU game will get either Hendrix, Southwestern, or Austin.

Naturally all of that could change.  What might be the most interesting would be if Centre loses at DePauw and OU wins over Sewanee and Rhodes, then it would give OU a shot at 1st in the East going into the last weekend.  I have a feeling it will be a pretty wild crowd at the OU games on that last weekend.

[Dave84]

actually Wes, the apg i was referring to (4.7) is his assists per game for the 10 conference games played as of this weekend.  nothing to do with assist/turnover.  yes, that is a nice statistic as well.  i was making a point as to saying 3.5 turnovers a game is a major indicator as to the type of basketball Moore plays.  nothing wrong with that.  but in a game where two very good teams are playing each other, i'm going to take a guy that can be more reliable with the basketball, which is why i made the depauw-centre game reference.  obviously i've hit a touchy spot with the depauw fans, when all i am doing is stating that i feel Britt is a better candidate (as of February 4, 2008) for POY than Moore.  Heck, i'm a trinity fan, i could really care less if either of them wins it. 

also, 22-5 i believe would get depauw an at-large.  the first Regional Rankings should be coming out from the NCAA pretty soon if i'm not mistaken?

[Pat Coleman]

A week from Wednesday. 

[DPU3619]

actually Wes, the apg i was referring to (4.7) is his assists per game for the 10 conference games played as of this weekend.  nothing to do with assist/turnover.  yes, that is a nice statistic as well.  i was making a point as to saying 3.5 turnovers a game is a major indicator as to the type of basketball Moore plays.  nothing wrong with that.  but in a game where two very good teams are playing each other, i'm going to take a guy that can be more reliable with the basketball, which is why i made the depauw-centre game reference.  obviously i've hit a touchy spot with the depauw fans, when all i am doing is stating that i feel Britt is a better candidate (as of February 4, 2008) for POY than Moore.  Heck, i'm a trinity fan, i could really care less if either of them wins it. 

You haven't hit a soft spot with me, but it seems silly to point to all of those numbers as the reason that Britt deserves it over Moore when Moore's numbers are better in each of them.

EDIT: Obviously, assists are inherently good.  Duh.  They directly result in points (2 or 3) for your team.  You get 10 assists, your team gets at least 20 points.  Now, turnovers may or may not be bad by the same margin.  Maybe the other team scores, maybe they don't.  You certainly don't.  Regardless, while that may be the case, that's the reason they created assist/turnover ratio in the first place. 

You can't knock a guy for doing wrong by his team for turning it over when he provides more than enough good to compensate with assists.  His A/T ratio is still better than Britt's, which means he directly provides more points for his team than Britt does both passing AND scoring (Moore scores more), so I fail see where Britt becomes the more valuable player UNLESS you're making an argument that he's the best player on the best team.

[DPULefty22]

Wes is doing a nice job backing me up, but I did want to chime in and add that I've felt that the Britt arguments don't really seem to go beyond 'best player on best team' and 'hit a buzzer beater to send the Millsaps game to OT.' That's why I've been on the offensive with my arguments for Moore.

I mean, how many games could he possibly be shooting DPU out of? They're 16 and 4. If they were 12-8 or 13-7 and a mid-pack team in the SCAC, then there might be an argument for that. But this is a good team, one of the two best in the SCAC (their win over MC is a convincing enough argument for me to put them above the Majors for the time being), and Moore has been the catalyst.

I think the Tigers have to run the table to give themselves the best chance to be a Pool C. If they don't, they'll end up a three seed in the East and have to go through Centre (in all likelihood) to get to Championship Sunday, which they'd probably need to get to to have any chance at a bid.

Of course, they could just win the conference and make the Pool C thing a moot point. I know which scenario I like better. But I think a big help in that direction would be a win over the Petrels in Atlanta in three weeks to get that two seed in the East.

Not that I want to sound like I'm counting the proverbial chickens... I'm just throwing scenarios out there.

[Dave84]

wes,  i think that is where everyone gets caught up in statistics.  when two players have comparable statistics, it truly comes down to intangibles.  10 assits gets you 20+ points...correct.  Turnovers completely change momentum and the game in itself.  I would much rather have a player who is more reliable with the basketball and Britt has always appeared to be better in this category.  Besides, we all know that style of play comes into account when dealing with statistics.  Depauw has always definitely been a more uptempo team (mostly due to the excellence of Moore) than Centre has; two different coaching styles.  Who is the back up for Moore? I've seen him play a couple of times and know that he was hurt last year, but he's going to be a very good player.  He reminds me of a better Brandon Daniels, for those of you who remember Southwestern's "spark" off the bench a few years back.

[DPU3619]

So that's it?  Moore does more bad things than Britt, so Moore automatically loses.  Forget the good stuff, it's less bad stuff.  Forget the fact that Moore does more good stuff in nearly every category, his greater badness (which in proportion is not nearly as bad as his good is good) is the dealbreaker.

Look, I'm not saying Moore's the guy to pick for the POTY.  It's still early.  And Montgomery is still a beast.  But if you're making a case, at least look at the full statistics for a guy before you throw him under the bus for turnovers.

[pbrooks3]

You know if we go purely on the basis of stats, Mike Moore probably wins hands down with Montgomery 2nd and Britt 3rd.  There is something to Dave84's point about intangibles.  While the intangible factor may not be terribly significant in and of itself, it should be given some measure in the overall evaluation.  I have not seen Montgomery play this year, and I have only seen Moore once.  I have the advantage (and bias I might add) of having watched Britt play 7 times.  Where Britt shines in my opinion is his leadership skills both on and off the court with his teammates.  He's also extremely efficient on the court.  Look at his stat line and his numbers reflect the efficiency.  He plays less time than either Moore or Montgomery.  He makes plays on both ends of the court.  While he's not the primary ballhandler like Moore, Britt generally is regarded as one of the best defensive players in the league for his size and position.  He rarely takes bad shots - he shoots 52.5% from the field (50% on 3's) and is nearly 90% from the line.  Granted Moore touches (and distributes) the ball more than the other 2 so I will acknowledge that he should have a few more turnovers.  I don't really have a knock on Mike Moore.  He may very well indeed be more valuable to his team than any other player in the league.  I just want to see how these last 5 games play out before I decide who would be my POTY in the SCAC.  Hopefully those who select Player of the Year will have seen a wider body of work from the different teams and players than I have and will be more objective.  But I have to admit Thomas Britt is having one tremendous senior year to this point in the season.

[Major_Fan]

Wow! Week 10 Top 25 Poll released just now... Centre up six spots from #11 to #5.  Millsaps (17-3, 8-2 SCAC West) and DePauw (16-4, 8-2 SCAC East) close behind in the receiving votes column.  I'm so ready for the conference tournament Feb. 29-March 2 and glad I actually get to go this year! 

[Dave84]

That is a terrific analysis pbrooks.  it's nice to know that ONE person agrees that something other than statistics can make a player exceptional.  you talk about all of the qualities that Britt brings on the court, he really reminds me of a more scoring-oriented Chad Stroberg.  The kind of player that will put his body on the line, and put everything on the court.  Doesn't have too many poor performances because he plays within his means at all times.  He is definitely the most consistent player for a winning program this year.  King has been consistently amazing as well, but it's a shame that his supporting cast can't help him get some more wins.  He definitely deserves it with the career he's had thus far.

the tourney is in Conway this year right?  Is this because the spring sports festival is there, or are we actually going to start having some sort of rotation schedule for sites? (i can guarantee no one wants to spend the money to get down to texas for the SCAC tourney)

[pbrooks3]

The pollsters definitely rewarded Centre and DePauw on the board for their successful road work in Texas this past weekend. It's good seeing this movement. This, in my mind, is establishing additional cred for the SCAC.

If I'm not mistaken the Conway location is a 2-year commitment. I honestly think Memphis represented the closest thing to a central site for the tournament. Nothing against Hendrix - their new gym is very nice and the lighting is exceptional for both the players and spectators. I hope there will be a good turnout.

[Dave84]

I'm going to try my hardest to make it out there this year.  Can't promise anything, but you gotta love SCAC tourney time.

[d3allstar]

just fyi, Southwestern will be providing live video feeds of all the games both men and women at the SCAC tourney...

[DPU3619]

If I'm not mistaken the Conway location is a 2-year commitment. I honestly think Memphis represented the closest thing to a central site for the tournament. Nothing against Hendrix - their new gym is very nice and the lighting is exceptional for both the players and spectators. I hope there will be a good turnout.

Is this the start of the rotating site deal that was proposed about 3 years ago?  It's original intent was to alternate hosting it between a southern site, a central site, and a northern site.  However, that was before the addition of Colorado, Austin, Birmingham, and the loss of RHIT.