FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[amh63]

Boy....it is only the start of Summer...not officially, I know...and the topics on this board keep the "pages" going. 
IslandTime....it was hotter in my area than parts of Florida yesterday!  Your post begs me to comment...since I am a facilities guy of sorts...tend to visit colleges when I travel  to check out stadiums, etc.  Had to visit the biggest football stadium at the time in Ann Arbor and even drove to Gainesville to see the "Swamp".  Yes, while facilities are a factor to student- athletes...best workout facility is at Tufts...NY Giant NFL co-owner money....the key factor is the Coaches, IMO, plus the atmosphere provided by students and a "secret" ingredient which I will get to later.
Your mention of the indoor facitliy overlooked by the Amherst fitness Center is the Coolidge "cage".  It was the facility where the basketball team played their games.  It had a dirt floor and an overhead track in my days.  There were/are a number of similar structures in NE to counter the weather.  Wesleyan had one that was used up to the 90's for MBB before their new gym was built. Torn down and replaced.....adjacent to the football field.  Just found out that Bates has a similar Cage-like building.  There is one at UMass-Amherst now used by the WBB team.  Believe Julius Ewing played in their Cage when he attended UMass.  Kentucky's HBC Calipari...coached in the replacement facility.
When I visited Charleston, S.C. for work and pleasure, my wife and I took a commercial tour once.  The tour guide mentioned that the first "black" to graduate from an U.S. College came from Charleston.  A freeman and the son of a former slave who had a thriving business in town. He mentioned Amherst University in Ma.  I had to correct him in that the University was UMass and it was Amherst College that he attended. The graduate went on to Africa to be a missionary and help start a new nation.
Now The Secret factor in attracting football players are the eating places in the area, especially the ice cream places like famous Herrell in Northampton!

[jumpshot]

islandtime,

Williams College's facilities are superb, including basketball gym (s), pool, soccer fields, football/track/field hockey/lacrosse/tennis, softball, skiing, cross country, wrestling, etc.

What matters even more than physical assets are academics, social culture, coaches as full members of faculty, student body, tone, maximum participation, athletic department staff, etc.

What is it now 19 out of 21 Directors' Cups (I can hear the excuses rising from others) ?

Distinctive approach without major/minor sports. You'll come to understand the results, rather than the inputs.

[Cac7]

When I visited Charleston, S.C. for work and pleasure, my wife and I took a commercial tour once.  The tour guide mentioned that the first "black" to graduate from an U.S. College came from Charleston.  A freeman and the son of a former slave who had a thriving business in town. He mentioned Amherst University in Ma.  I had to correct him in that the University was UMass and it was Amherst College that he attended.cream

Actually the first African-American to graduate from an American college was Alexander Twilight, who graduated from Middlebury College in 1823. Amherst's first black graduate was in 1826.

http://www.biography.com/people/alexander-lucius-twilight-213035

[quicksilver]

Interesting that the NESCAC has first, second, and third place in terms of the nation's first African American college graduates, with Middlebury first (1823) and Amherst edging Bowdoin by two weeks for the second spot due to the timing of graduation in 1826.

[IslandTime]

islandtime,

Williams College's facilities are superb, including basketball gym (s), pool, soccer fields, football/track/field hockey/lacrosse/tennis, softball, skiing, cross country, wrestling, etc.

What matters even more than physical assets are academics, social culture, coaches as full members of faculty, student body, tone, maximum participation, athletic department staff, etc.

What is it now 19 out of 21 Directors' Cups (I can hear the excuses rising from others) ?

Distinctive approach without major/minor sports. You'll come to understand the results, rather than the inputs.

I am not knocking Williams at all.....as I stated, the facilities for all of them for such a small student body are amazing. However, in visiting the 3 schools, they were not the "best" as I have seen mentioned on this board more than once.

Just my opinion.

[Cac7]

islandtime,

Williams College's facilities are superb, including basketball gym (s), pool, soccer fields, football/track/field hockey/lacrosse/tennis, softball, skiing, cross country, wrestling, etc.

What matters even more than physical assets are academics, social culture, coaches as full members of faculty, student body, tone, maximum participation, athletic department staff, etc.

What is it now 19 out of 21 Directors' Cups (I can hear the excuses rising from others) ?

Distinctive approach without major/minor sports. You'll come to understand the results, rather than the inputs.

I am not knocking Williams at all.....as I stated, the facilities for all of them for such a small student body are amazing. However, in visiting the 3 schools, they were not the "best" as I have seen mentioned on this board more than once.

Just my opinion.

Islandtime, I agree. While it's been said here that Williams' facilities are the best, they really aren't.

Jumpshot, since you seem to think multiple things factor into a decision, why don't we run through those.

Williams definitely has the best weightroom of the three, as I wasn't impressed by neither Middlebury nor Amherst's weightrooms.

Amherst's lockerroom in the building right off Pratt (can't remember the name) was the nicest of the three. Middlebury's, however, is a bit more spacious with better amenities though it is not quite as dressed up as Amherst's. .

Both Pratt and Weston are very nice with a great feel, and Amherst's locker room being right next to the field is a huge plus. But the view from Youngman simply can't be beat. All three have good turf, but Youngman's setting makes it the best.

As far as other facilities go, Middlebury is miles ahead of the others. The Middlebury field house, I've said before, is absolutely incredible. Middlebury may be the only team in D3 that can practice inside on turf. Amherst and Williams have fieldhouse which are good for indoor tennis and basketball (Middlebury also has another facility that is similar to those), but are nothing compared to Middlebury's.

A far less important factor are uniforms, and Amherst's are certainly the best, especially with their black jerseys. Middlebury's are the second best, and the helmets are a nice touch. Williams is a very distant third with those purple and yellow monstrosities.

In terms of academics, they're all practically the same depending on your field of study. For the sciences, maybe go to Williams. For finance, go to Amherst or Middlebury. For languages/international relations, go to Midd. For the sake of ranking let's go to the classic U.S. News Liberal Arts College rankings, which has (consistently) Williams at 1, Amherst at 2, and Middlebury at 4 nationally. This is the standard ranking across most college ranking lists--they're all very close, but Williams has the slight edge overall.

In terms of coaching, Mills is a very good coach and Amherst will see success as long as he is there. He has a good staff with some really nice, great assistants. Coach Augustine the d-line coach is a great guy. Ritter is genius, and the same goes for him--Midd will have success as long as he is there. His assistants are another good group with some good personalities and great football minds. I don't know too much about Williams' new head coach, but I've heard mixed things (although this board has had nothing but positive things to say). I have met the new offensive coordinator multiple times, and he seems like a decent guy, but not nearly as good of a personality as you'll find at Amherst or Midd. I'm familiar with some of the Williams assistant coaches who are remaining from the Kelton regime and I don't find them very impressive.

There are certainly a whole bunch of non-football factors that Jumpshot brought up that would be difficult to discuss and to come to concrete conclusions on through a football board like like this. But jumpshot, you did neglect to mention one football factor that is huge in recruiting: winning. Obviously, Amherst has an edge on the others, and Middlebury has a big edge on Williams in this category. I think this is a huge factor in recruiting. This is part of why Middlebury has much better recruits than say Bowdoin (despite having similar academic rankings), and why Amherst has better recruits than Williams. Don't believe me? This season, look at the offensive lines of each of these teams this year (I say offensive line just because size and quality is so dependent upon recruiting). Amherst's o-line looks like they belong in the NFL compared to Williams's, and Middlebury's looks like it belongs in the NFL when compared to Bowdoin's or Williams's.

That's all just my opinion.

[lumbercat]

What has been said on this site is the Williams Football Stadium is the finest in the NESCAC followed by the newer Football facilities at Amherst and Bates. I don't believe there has been any substantive debate on overall athletic facilities, field houses, weight rooms etc as a whole on this board though it's informative for all to hear of this evaluation by the new breed of incoming athletes and their families.


I'm gonna take a back seat on the new process.......if decisions are now being made by incoming student athletes on how the weight room is set up or how many jerseys the team has you may be over engineering the process. 

[jumpshot]

cac7:

Let me help you understand reality, since without facts you can be forgiven for only ineptly pounding the table with opinions.

My comments were not at all addressing solely football or facilities, simply offering wisdom shared by veterans of these boards.

Limiting your own critical thinking to a narrow period of the declining sport of football is like looking at a movie through a keyhole, and focusing on ingredients rather than results of a body of work receives a grade of incomplete. As to winning, you should recall that the Ephs have won 48 Little Three titles in football and the plague only 32. Any of us can select a particular timeframe, such as Williams winning 13 consecutive football games over the plague from 1987 to 1999, and 19 consecutive men's basketball games from 1958 to 1968, etc. Of course, winning 19 of 21 Directors' Cups speaks for itself.

Williams has won 32 NCAA team titles, 1st in NESCAC, 4th in all of DIII, and three times as many as the plague. The Ephs have been awarded 173 individual NCAA titles, 1st in NESCAC, and 2nd in all of DIII, etc., so Williams people tend to deal in facts.

Oh, by the way, having gone a total of 16-0 versus the plague in two sports, and never losing to Mid also in two sports, I am comforted that on those items on which we disagree that you are capable of still learning.

[nescac1]

Since I started all this, let me clarify that I was referring only to Williams' new football facility, which I think overall in the best in NESCAC, not overall athletic facilities, where Williams is not.  The Ephs have great facilities for certain sports, but some, in particular the field house and some areas of Chandler, are in serious need of being upgraded. I wasn't discussing athletic facilities overall, just specifically the football stadium experience.  Amherst's new field is also gorgeous but I don't like certain aspects (no locker room for visitors and the track between field and stands). 

Now if you want to talk academic facilities, with a ridiculous new library, student center, theater complex, humanities buildings, and ongoing construction of a spectacular science facility to complement the already-impressive science complex, there Williams crushes all of its rivals.  I look forward to the school one day building a field house and fitness center of comparable quality.

As for the winning point, Wesleyan and Amherst (among others) have managed to turn around programs at the nadir of NESCAC quickly under new coaches in the past.   Players worry less about the last few years than the overall trajectory of the program.  Look at Tufts, more recently.  Williams has the advantage of along with Trinity also having easily the best football tradition in the league.  I'm confident that a competent coach will easily attract top recruits despite the Ephs' recent struggles.  But again, it will take a few years to develop those recruits. 

[amh63]

Guess it is time to cool the facilities "discussion" before it headed to parts unknown.   Will add several comments and a suggestion to keep this board moving through the Summer Time period...hopefully.
I will tip my hat to Williams wrt having the BEST golf course!...in the conference.  I have walked the course and posted awhile back about its automated golf bag carriers that can follow you.  It does not have the hazards as the rebuilt course at the Un. of Florida.....live Gators can pop up.
When the facilities talk goes to other venues....so to speak....like libraries, now I have to say it is not the structure but what is available for students to use....do students even use hard copies these days...HOPE so.

Suggestion.....like to discuss uniforms and shoes in Today's Nescac football world.  Does the individual schools pick their own uniform supplier?  How much leverage can a school have with the "stock" design of a manufacturer? It appears that the conference will still have several grass fields to play on at both ends of the football tier...Bowdoin and Wesleyan.  Do schools/programs have to have two types of field cover to practice on to be competitive?  Artificial surfaces vary throughout the conference in terms of brand and condition....as Trinity will have a new field this Fall.  Does such things really matter much??  In the end, I believe it is the coaches and the teammates/players on hand.
Still, I do wish Amherst goes back to a retro jersey with the stripes.

[TheHerst2and4]

cac7
Don't mind jumpshot, he's thrown the keyhole/movie reference around at others before, including me.
In a discussion about why current football recruits, would choose a school over another, I'm not quite sure how Williams' 1987 run would have any relevance, or Williams' success in other sports for that matter. The past seems to be a fallback position for any discussion about Williams' current woes in football and men's basketball.
Will Williams football and basketball teams rebound? Surely they will. Williams is a top institution, with a very successful sports program. There's no denying that. Heck, Williams kicked my ass my senior year in my last game at Amherst. I've always respected them. However, as a newcomer to the board you'll be able to sort through posts that offer substance, and other's from salty alumni. Some here have drank too much of the kool-aid, I wish I could take credit for that designation, but that came from some younger Williams alumn.

[amh63]

For me, found a path to some new student athletes joining the ranks of Nescac schools.  Was seeking more info on an Amherst MBB class of 2020 recruit.  The player is a student from the Delbarton School in NJ....a school that has sent impact players to Amherst in football, basketball, etc.  The school had a write up of the senior class players going forward to select colleges.  The list included football players to Trinity and a number of athletes to Williams....no basketball or football players, I believe.  There maybe some others going to other Nescac schools.  Recall on this board some discussion on the talent pool of Jersey Boys..football talent . Amherst has been quite fortunate in getting great players from NJ for many many decades...due in part to having former players doing the steering.

[nescac1]

A few things.  First, Amherst folks, I wouldn't sweat jumpshot's trolling too much (for the record, I have no idea who he is), he clearly is trying to provoke y'all, and it's clearly working.  I say this having been provoked, myself, by other trolls on these boards ...

Second, to TheHerst2And4, I would not characterize Williams basketball as being in a "woeful" state.  A mere three seasons ago, Williams was in the national championship game after beating Amherst in the Final Four.  Now yes, the program had a bit of a setback after losing both its coach and the most talented NESCAC player in decades (if not ever) in the same off-season, but Williams has still, despite suffering from some key injuries and relying on many young players, been well above .500 the last two years with several high points, including a dramatic win over Amherst and three all-NESCAC players, one of whom set the NCAA D3 record for consecutive free throws made.  Hardly a "woeful" state, even if not up to the usual Williams level.  Meanwhile, Williams has virtually all of its contributors returning, as well as a starter who missed all of last season, from a very young team, and is welcoming a very strong recruiting class.  The immediate future is bright, and after the last two groups of recruits, the long term future is once again extraordinarily bright for Eph hoops, which I anticipate to be battling for an NCAA tourney berth this year and to make appearances like clockwork for the next few years thereafter, at least. 

Football can, on the other hand, fairly be called woeful, but that is attribute to one terrible hiring decision.  Amherst in the early 1990s was in a similar situation (also because of a coach, but there it was because of someone, tragically, who was suffering from cognitive decline), and even though the program was by far the worst in NESCAC around 1992-93, a strong coaching hire combined with a strong football tradition and a few monster recruiting classes led to a VERY rapid turnaround, and Amherst has been between solid and stellar ever since.  So tradition does matter -- it's a lot easier to sell a program that as recently as 2010 was the best in NESCAC but has had a recent hiccup to potential recruits than it is to tell a perennial bottom-feeder. 

[ColbyFootball]

Colby's strength coach St. Pierre left abruptly last week. Apparently the football coaches are not allowed to discuss it, and the AD has not addressed it with the players. Any info available?

Any information on what happened at Colby? I hope this is not the start of a dump football campaign? Very concerned right now.

[IslandTime]

Colby's strength coach St. Pierre left abruptly last week. Apparently the football coaches are not allowed to discuss it, and the AD has not addressed it with the players. Any info available?

Any information on what happened at Colby? I hope this is not the start of a dump football campaign? Very concerned right now.

Colby Football has been tweeting out a campaign called "Meet a Mule" that highlights a different current player each time. Really cool if you ask me.

Hopefully that is a sign that your fears are unfounded.

Go AMHERST !!!!