FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[jmcozenlaw]

Amazing that the 1 xp that he missed.....was the difference in us losing 27-26

The box score says the kick was blocked.  It does not say he missed it.  9 times out of 10, a blocked kick means an OL or RB missed his block, the center got off a bad snap, or the holder bobbled the ball.  In other words, the fault usually lies with kids you consider to be "real" football players.

Semantics, gentlemen.  Placekickers and punters play on football teams.  They play there position.  They are players.  An XP or FG attempt that fails to make it through the uprights, for any reason, is a missed attempt.  Misplays by centers and holders can also be the reason for errant kicks and too low a trajectory can be the reason for the kick being blocked.  "Player."  "Miss."  Semantics.

Btw westcoastdad, are NL pitchers players, but not their AL counterparts?  Inter-league trading must make for some very confusing resumes.

What is a goalie in an exciting 0-0 soccer match who faces zero quality shots on goal? A soccer player? A goalie? A specialist?

What is the moron in hockey who's sole purpose, for his five minutes on the ice, to drop his gloves and fight? A hockey player? A goon? A specialist?

What is player #183 on Mount Union's football team, who literally never sees the field in four years, but puts "Mount Union Football Player" on his resume? A football player? A reality stretcher?

The NL (real baseball) vs. AL (flawed baseball - see DH) pitching question is a good one. How about the reliever in the AL, lefty specialist, who's sole job is to come into a game once or twice a week to pitch to a left handed batter, accumulates 40 innings for the year and never picks up a bat. What is he? A baseball player? A pitcher? A specialist?

Interesting...................although a stud kicker/punter is far more important week in and week out than the 3rd QB on the roster............until #1 and #2 get hurt (and damn, if Cody Kessler doesn't look like he might have a future given how he's looked with that drek of a roster)

[Grabowski]

wcDad, I'm with you. 
Exhibit A: Garo Yepremian
Exhibit B: (notwithstanding Joe Theisman) the single bar facemask
Exhibit C: back in another century, our kicker used to wear his watch to practice

A kicker is roughly half a football player....as Ron Burgundy would say, "it's science."  In the old days, a QB was maybe 2/3 of a football player.  Now, with the read-option, QBs generally have to be a whole player.

And regardless of what percent of a player you give kickers, they get full, 100% teammate status.  And often have outsized impact on games...

[amh63]

Less we forget....again, Rak plays the safety position, a starter.  Maybe the strong safety.  This points out he is a football player in all respects.  Thought we had this discussion wrt specialist, team member, etc when the subject of a kicker.  Anybody on the football team is a football player.  This is like discussing the QB position.  Is he a specialist?  Is an only passer QB a complete QB if he does not run? 
Come on posters....some thoughts on the games ahead....midweek is around the corner.  Lots of egos and brains...not big heads...on this board so make some projections.  Show off your expertise and football insider terms.

[frank uible]

It's all about courage. If a kicker is perceived to have courage by his teammates, he is accepted by them. If not, then they reject him.

[westcoastDad]

Let me get this right........   you're out there saying that an American League pitcher is NOT a complete baseball player because he doesn't have to take his turn at batting like the NL pitcher does?

That's probably the dumbest "comeback" I've read in awhile.  Here's why: If that same AL pitcher is traded to a National League team.........he then takes his turns in the batter's box.  It's not that he can't hit.......it's that the AL rules dictate that he does not have to.  There have been pitchers who were actually BETTER hitters than those playing in the field.  Do you remember Fernando Valenzuela?  Used to pitch for the Dodgers back in the 80s.  His batting average was higher than some of the everyday players (Bill Russell SS).  They would have Fernando PINCH HIT. 

Now, if you want to argue that to the purists out there ......the National League is baseball in the purer form........that's an argument for another day. 

But, let me see 99.9% of today's kickers be asked to go play running back, wide receiver, linebacker, corner, etc.  It's not going to happen.  Get outta here. 

They are specialists.  I don't care about their 1pt conversions or 3pt conversions.  That stuff was made for TV to help the scores from being so low.  Lord knows what the scores would be if someone couldn't kick that ball through the uprights everytime they couldn't punch it into the end zone.

If your not BLOCKING, TACKLING, THROWING, BEING TACKLED, CATCHING, ETC...........THEN YOU'RE A SPECIALIST


AMH63 I'm surprised at your Quarterback comparison.  Come on man.  QB's have to get hit.  They have to throw the ball.  They are integral parts of the game.  No different than a running back.  Or wide receiver.  etc. 

Anyone who gets hit (without it being a penalty) is definitely in the Coliseum of Gladiators.


your honor, I rest my case. 

[JEFFFAN]

Let me get this right........   you're out there saying that an American League pitcher is NOT a complete baseball player because he doesn't have to take his turn at batting like the NL pitcher does?

That's probably the dumbest "comeback" I've read in awhile.  Here's why: If that same AL pitcher is traded to a National League team.........he then takes his turns in the batter's box.  It's not that he can't hit.......it's that the AL rules dictate that he does not have to.  There have been pitchers who were actually BETTER hitters than those playing in the field.  Do you remember Fernando Valenzuela?  Used to pitch for the Dodgers back in the 80s.  His batting average was higher than some of the everyday players (Bill Russell SS).  They would have Fernando PINCH HIT. 

Now, if you want to argue that to the purists out there ......the National League is baseball in the purer form........that's an argument for another day. 

But, let me see 99.9% of today's kickers be asked to go play running back, wide receiver, linebacker, corner, etc.  It's not going to happen.  Get outta here. 

They are specialists.  I don't care about their 1pt conversions or 3pt conversions.  That stuff was made for TV to help the scores from being so low.  Lord knows what the scores would be if someone couldn't kick that ball through the uprights everytime they couldn't punch it into the end zone.

If your not BLOCKING, TACKLING, THROWING, BEING TACKLED, CATCHING, ETC...........THEN YOU'RE A SPECIALIST


AMH63 I'm surprised at your Quarterback comparison.  Come on man.  QB's have to get hit.  They have to throw the ball.  They are integral parts of the game.  No different than a running back.  Or wide receiver.  etc. 

Anyone who gets hit (without it being a penalty) is definitely in the Coliseum of Gladiators.


your honor, I rest my case. 

And based on the jury of NESCAC football posters, you lost your case!

[PolarCat]

The last time I heard an argument that was that incoherent, Vinny Gambini was talking about two utes.  Sorry counselor, the Court finds for the defendants.

[lumbercat]

And 4 kickers are in Canton. George Blanda, Lou Groza, Ray Guy, and Jan Stenerud.

And another k who should be: Gino Cappelletti.
Look for Adam Vinatieri to find a spot in Canton also.

[PolarCat]

At the risk of beating this whole topic to death...  Back in the Dark Ages, we had a kicker at my school who went on to play for the Pats, the Jets and the Chiefs, where he displaced one of those guys in Canton.  He had a fascinating story, and to me embodies what it means to be both a scholar (degrees from Dartmouth and Harvard) and an athlete.  I'd dare you to try and tell his HOF Dartmouth teammate Reggie Williams (who had a terrific career with the Bengals, back when their LB's knew how to play with class) that Nick Lowery wasn't a real football player.

Nick is still #12 on the NFL's list of all-time leading scorers, and if you have 10 minutes, this is a great read: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/where-are-they-now-nick-lowery/

[RetiredMule]

And one last one because I love abuse dead equine creatures.  Joey Julius would like a word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX3sQLcLjYQ

[NESCAC.Football.Observer]

Who cares?!?!?  Can we cease and desist about kickers please?!?!?

How about this weekend's predictions.... my buddy has a list.... how about this:

o   Hamilton 21 @ Colby 14
o   Trinity 31 @ Bowdoin 14
o   Bates 14 @ Middlebury 35
o   Amherst 24 @ Wesleyan 13 
o   Williams 13 @ Tufts 27       

[westcoastDad]

When a placekicker gets invited to the Heisman award ceremony you will win your case.

When a placekicker or punter wins Rookie of the Year or League MVP......then you will have won your case.

When a kicker is invited to an NFL combine....u will have won your case

When a kicker is on the front page of the dang Football program.....you will get a slap on the back.

When a kicker is hosting MNFL.....as a color analyst.....then U are getting closer.

When a kicker is the leading vote getter for the Pro Bowl....u will be even closer.

BUT AS U CAN SEE.....ALL JOKES ASIDE......YOU CANNOT AND DO NOT HAVE A VALID RESPONSE. 

They are specialists baby. 

[PolarCat]

When ANY NESCAC player, at ANY position accomplishes any of those things, you will have a case.  Till then?  It's just a lot of hot air.

Now it's time to take Mark Twain's advice about arguing with folks who will beat me with experience.....

[lumbercat]

WCD
The best closers in the major league baseball.......ballplayers or specialists?

[westcoastDad]

lumbercat


they are definitely baseball players.

baseball (for pitchers) is about getting people out.  a relief pitcher (even though he might only pitch one out) is still required to pitch, catch, throw, and field to get the out.  no different than a starter. 

rollie fingers over and out