FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[PolarCat]

Want a better taste of what Colby-Bates is like?  Read these recaps from the last two games.  Like Lumbercat said, the CBB games are pretty special.

• The OT thriller of 2014: http://athletics.bates.edu/sports/fball/2014-15/releases/201410250emk6d
  
  
• The 2015 contest hinged on a key block of a "mulligan" PAT.  One of the strangest endings ever: http://athletics.bates.edu/sports/fball/2015-16/releases/20151031rpndl6

Come to Lewiston Saturday.  You'll be glad you did.

(PS: Mike, sorry for dredging up those memories).

[westcoastDad]

There's the little 3 championship  (Amherst, Williams, and Wesleyan).

There is the CBB rivalry (Colby, Bates, Bowdoin)

Has there ever been an attempt to pull Middlebury, Tufts, Trinity (and Hamilton) into the mix with their own inner rivalry? 

They seem to be left out geographically for being so far away from each. 

[lumbercat]

WCD

In the old days the teams you mention that look to be outside the current mix had their own great rivalries that fell by the wayside to the dismay of many when the NESCAC made the move to limit competition exclusively between NESCAC teams.

There was no better rivalry than Middlebury-Norwich in Vermont and the Trinity-Coast Guard rivalry was a good one too. Almost forgot Hamilton- Union which was also a good one. They all went by the board when the NESCAC was formed.

If you want to go back a bit further the old Maine State Series pitted Bates, Bowdoin and Colby along with UMaine in which was a big deal in the Pine Tree State until it was disbanded in the mid 60's.

[UfanBill]

Yes, I could see how many NESCAC fans may have seldom if ever made the trek to Continental country in central NY. After all Hamilton is the ONLY NESCAC school not in New England. So what brings me a Union fan to the NESCAC board? Well, coincidentally, I just mentioned Hamilton (the exciled sister of the " little ivories") on the Liberty League board. Why? We!l let me run this through. The Liberty League will soon lose three football playing members. Springfield, WPI and USMMA are leaving for the newly formed football NEWMAC . The LL will be reduced to Union, RPI, St. Lawrence, Rochester and Hobart. Ithaca has accepted an invitation to join in 2017 and Alfred is being courted as a seventh football member. So how's Hamilton fit in to all of this? Well it is my conjecture, and believe me when I say I have NO information or idea if this is possible, that it would benefit Hamilton to be the eighth member. But why you will ask? Now I'm well aware of these facts 1)the NESCAC does not allow post season football 2) the LL does and it has been extremely beneficial in many ways which we could discuss 3) to maintain an automatic qualifier berth in the NCAA D3 football playoffs it is required that a league have EIGHT members...Now you see why the LL might covet Hamilton as a member...So what's in it for the Continentals? Well maybe it's time for them to be embraced by their NYS neighbors. They've been the doormat for the NESCAC for decades. They could renew their long dormant true rivalry with Union instead of pretending with Bates. Their travel expenses would be greatly reduced. It would bring new life to a long floundering program in terms of interest and recruiting. AND the NESCAC could easily shoulder the blow since you now have an awkward ten member schedule.  It all could work. Makes sense to me. What do you think?

[westcoastDad]

Thanks Lumbercat.  That was short and sweet but great historical feedback.  I always tell my son that outside of the browbeating we often engage in on this board, I learn so much historical information about NESCAC.

And, that's a bombshell above in regards to Hamilton being a potential target for the Liberty League.  It makes a lot of sense for Hamilton to entertain that move.

[Vandy74]

WCD

In the old days the teams you mention that look to be outside the current mix had their own great rivalries that fell by the wayside to the dismay of many when the NESCAC made the move to limit competition exclusively between NESCAC teams.

There was no better rivalry than Middlebury-Norwich in Vermont and the Trinity-Coast Guard rivalry was a good one too. Almost forgot Hamilton- Union which was also a good one. They all went by the board when the NESCAC was formed.

If you want to go back a bit further the old Maine State Series pitted Bates, Bowdoin and Colby along with UMaine in which was a big deal in the Pine Tree State until it was disbanded in the mid 60's.

Historically the Panthers have ties with certain NESCAC and Liberty League schools.  The earliest season I've been able to find for Middlebury is 1956 when the 7 game schedule included Wesleyan, Williams, Bates, RPI, WPI, Norwich and UVM.  It remained that way until  Hamilton was added in 1966.  Union became UVM's regular replacement in 1970.  Coast Guard had filled in the season before.  Union was a member of the NESCAC until 1977 but remained on Middlebury's schedule through the 1987 season.  The NESCAC scheduling gods slowly removed the offenders.  RPI was gone in 1975 as was WPI in 1977 when the 'CAC really began asserting it's rules.  Colby became a swing opponent with Bates and Bowdoin began to alternate with Wesleyan, as it continues to do, so that a true conference opponent with a much longer history of playing the Panthers is now one we face only half the time.  With the departure of Union in 1988 and Norwich in 1992 Middlebury's schedule became fully approved by the Powers That Be.

Anyone interested in reviewing past seasons, to the extent the schools supplied the data, will enjoy the link magicman shared on the basketball board a few years back.

web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/careersearch   

[polbear73]

WCD

In the old days the teams you mention that look to be outside the current mix had their own great rivalries that fell by the wayside to the dismay of many when the NESCAC made the move to limit competition exclusively between NESCAC teams.

There was no better rivalry than Middlebury-Norwich in Vermont and the Trinity-Coast Guard rivalry was a good one too. Almost forgot Hamilton- Union which was also a good one. They all went by the board when the NESCAC was formed.

If you want to go back a bit further the old Maine State Series pitted Bates, Bowdoin and Colby along with UMaine in which was a big deal in the Pine Tree State until it was disbanded in the mid 60's.

Historically the Panthers have ties with certain NESCAC and Liberty League schools.  The earliest season I've been able to find for Middlebury is 1956 when the 7 game schedule included Wesleyan, Williams, Bates, RPI, WPI, Norwich and UVM.  It remained that way until  Hamilton was added in 1966.  Union became UVM's regular replacement in 1970.  Coast Guard had filled in the season before.  Union was a member of the NESCAC until 1977 but remained on Middlebury's schedule through the 1987 season.  The NESCAC scheduling gods slowly removed the offenders.  RPI was gone in 1975 as was WPI in 1977 when the 'CAC really began asserting it's rules.  Colby became a swing opponent with Bates and Bowdoin began to alternate with Wesleyan, as it continues to do, so that a true conference opponent with a much longer history of playing the Panthers is now one we face only half the time.  With the departure of Union in 1988 and Norwich in 1992 Middlebury's schedule became fully approved by the Powers That Be.

Anyone interested in reviewing past seasons, to the extent the schools supplied the data, will enjoy the link magicman shared on the basketball board a few years back.

web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/careersearch   

Prior to NESCAC becoming a "closed" conference in the '80's, non conference opponents such as Springfield, WPI, Union, Coast Guard, Rochester, Norwich would appear regularly on the schedules of the New England schools (Hamilton played closer to a Liberty League schedule) and going further back, Delaware, Maine (the Maine series), Hobart, Swarthmore, Haverford and Washington and Lee would appear as well.  I recall that the future NESCAC colleges did quite well against these non conference opponents.  Times have certainly changed. 

[PolarCat]

UfanBill, it's not just Hamilton's travel budget that would benefit if the Conts moved to the LL.  And not just for football: Think of all those crazy-long bus rides the hockey and basketball teams make to Clinton in the dead of winter.  And it can impact the Spring sports, too.  When my daughter made her recruiting trip to Hamilton, the WLAX game vs. William Smiith had to be moved to the Carrier Dome in Syracuse, since there were 6 feet of snow on Steuben Field!

On a more personal note, could we get this to happen NEXT year?  Nothing against the Conts, but I'd love my kid to finish his NESCAC career with something other than an 8 hour bus ride (and a 6 hour car ride through swirling flakes for Mom and Dad to watch the final chapter).

[polbear73]

UfanBill, it's not just Hamilton's travel budget that would benefit if the Conts moved to the LL.  And not just for football: Think of all those crazy-long bus rides the hockey and basketball teams make to Clinton in the dead of winter.  And it can impact the Spring sports, too.  When my daughter made her recruiting trip to Hamilton, the WLAX game vs. William Smiith had to be moved to the Carrier Dome in Syracuse, since there were 6 feet of snow on Steuben Field!

On a more personal note, could we get this to happen NEXT year?  Nothing against the Conts, but I'd love my kid to finish his NESCAC career with something other than an 8 hour bus ride (and a 6 hour car ride through swirling flakes for Mom and Dad to watch the final chapter).

Don't forget it was only in 2011-2012 that Hamilton reaffirmed its commitment to the NESCAC by becoming a full member and, to my knowledge, there has been NOTHING to change that fact.  Before that, 21 of Hamilton's 28 teams already competed in the conference, while mens and womens basketball, field hockey, mens and womens lacrosse and soccer competed in the Liberty League. 

I doubt they are even thinking of going back. 

[JEFFFAN]

If the criteria was only about athletics and proximity, it would make sense for Hamilton to move back.   My sense, however, is that the academic quality of the NESCAC is very appealing to the powers that be of Hamilton.  Never forget what Joe Paterno said when Penn State was considering a move to the Big Ten.  He made it clear that PSU would not win as many football games but the academic quality of the Big Ten was too much to turn down.

[PolarCat]

JEFFFAN point well taken, BUT... the other schools in the Liberty League are no slouch academically: Bard, Clarkson, Hobart, RPI, RIT, St. Lawrence, Skidmore, Union and Vassar are all fine schools, as are their associate members Mount Holyoke, NYU, Springfield, St. John Fisher, USMMA, Wellesley and WPI.  With the possible exceptions of Williams, Amherst and Bowdoin, I think the LL offers an academic experience that is similar to what we have in the CAC.

[amh63]

Had a frost last night!  However, my plants survived and my outdoor chores are reduced!  The earlier topics of food and old rivals prove interesting and brought back memories.  Some comments with history. Football and food scattered about.
First, I have visited, passed through and eaten in many of the LL towns, cities and hamlets.  All have their pluses and minus wrt to travel and places to eat.  To suggest that a school should join one league versus another because of travel time or money is selfish, IMO.  Hamilton joining a league that has post season opportunities will not save money if they were able to qualitify...think more players and post season travel.  I find it somewhat ironic that an Union fan suggest the concept of an all NYState league and the teams leaving the league...Springfield, WPI, etc are schools that  Nescac schools played before Nescac.  Why?  Union was a member of Nescac but left or was asked to leave when they wanted to have a D1 men's hockey team.  Post season football games drives the vairious moves of schools, IMO.  Academic priorities limit the number of schools joining the CAC...not money, travel time or tradition, IMO.  Amherst did play Springfield, AIC and the USCoast Guard Academy in football, in years past.  The DARP was not happy with the HC of the USCGA and removed them from the schedule.  Amherst would play Harvard and UConn. when such schools were D1 powers in soccer.  Harvard was removed when the HCoaches clashed over the removal of my classmate from the team.  UConn was taken of the schedule when it did not benefit the players.  It maybe ok to play against a D1 school, but not a D1 school with a team built for a National title run.
Have to go to lunch so no food memories. .  Later.

[polbear73]

amh63:  the HC of the Coast Guard Academy was probably none other than Otto Graham. 

[amh63]

polbear73....yes sir, you are correct! Plus K!  Strange to me in that there was a difference of opinion on a particular play that brought everything to a head.  Both HCs had NFL experience and a drive to win.  No unbias way to explain the differences between the coaches. 
The differences between the HCs of Harvard and Amherst is another matter since it was about a classmate.  He was an Englishman who had great soccer skill and got caught up in the English school system testing system.  As I understand it, school kids take a sort of " entrance exam" in order to advance to schools like Oxford, Cambridge and even " red brick" universities.  My classmate. did not past initially.  His parents wanted him to go to college and not limited to a trade  school. He was sent to relatives in the USA, Philly area.  He entered prep school there and arrived at Amherst.  A year on the freshmen team and his Soph year on the varsity.  Pre- season scrimmage against Harvard, a team with a number of players from Olympic teams .  High hopes for the Harvard Coach.  The Amherst team had talent too and the teams played to a draw with some said the LJs played better.  My classmate's play caught the Harvard coach's eye...enough so that an inquiry was made.  It seemed that my classmate played on a local semi-pro team as a youth....for the experience only.  Even though it was confirmed that no money was involved, the Crimson coach had my classmate banned as a player.  The Amherst HC that I remember as a German bred gentleman of years, removed Harvard from the schedule.  My classmate graduated along with other talented Philly soccer playing classmates...a few getting all-American honors over their playing years.  Yes, a futbol story.

[frank uible]

As I recall it was related to me, Graham insulted Darp professionally in front of other coaches.