FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Knightstalker]

I don't see how schools like Williams and Amherst can look down on football and embrace basketball.  Basketball has a worse image than football in my opinion especially on the "higher" levels.

I've told this before, my nephew went to high school with a kid who was recruited by Williams and got accepted with an SAT under 1000.  I met this kid at my nephews graduation and he wouldn't be able to figure out how to pour sand out of his cleats if the directions were on the sole.  He actually ended up going to Syracuse because they gave him a full ride.  He is now a gym teacher and football coach.

I read the posts and they are no different than posts about schools like Rowan, Mount Union etc which are successful year in and year out.  Fans think there is no possible way they can be that successful without cheating.

[bant551]

Sometimes crying DOES help.

[Garnet]

Garnet ~
U89 figured you were in here to sing Priore praises as well.  U89 has done it too many times....NESCACers were starting to think U89 may be Chaz' relative on something.

U89,
Chuck does not need me to sing his praises.  His record and all he has accomplished speaks for itself.  He will be successful anywhere he goes because of his work ethic and enthusiasm.

[Pat Coleman]

You guys see that Stony Brook is going to go for full I-AA scholarship status instead of playing in the NEC?

http://www.newsday.com/sports/outdoors/ny-skcolmain104697266apr10,0,4886616.column?coll=ny-outdoors-headlines

[bant551]

Yeah, should be interesting to watch.  That is what Hofstra did, starting a decade or two (or in between) ago.  That clearly worked out for them.  I think they were actually D-3 at first.

One of his big qualities is that he doesn't bs much, at all.  He basically flat-out said its going to be a long process and that "score-board wins" are not necessarily going to come right away, especially when they start playing the big boys more often.

[nescac1]

knightstalker, I'm not sure when your friend applied to Williams, but there is no way he could have gotten in with less than an 1100, let alone less than a 1000, in the last few years.  Just because someone is recruited doesn't mean they would be accepted by admissions, although maybe this person was and standards have changed significantly.  Farley probably held more sway than perhaps any coach ever at Williams given his legacy of success and the high profile of his sport, but I would be absolutely shocked if any athlete with below a 1200, or at the most 2-3 a year in all sports total, got accepted in today's admissions climate.  Put it this was -- about 2 percent of all students attending Williamd have below a 550 on EITHER section of the SAT.  That is around 11 kids per year.  The odds of any of one of those 11 having below 550 (let alone below 500) on BOTH are pretty darn small.  More likely, they are folks who did poorly on one section but were relatively strong on the other. 

Amherst, which has essentially identical admissions standard to Williams (including in high profile sports like football and basketball -- believe me, whenever one is perceived to favor athletes too much, like Amherst football in the early 90's, you'll hear an outcry from the other) publishes far more detailed statistics:

http://www.amherst.edu/admission/secondaryschoolreport09.pdf

Basically no kids are accepted with below a 500 on EITHER subject, and just a very small handful with a 500-550.  Even 550-600, you are talking just a few kids a year.  And there is no way that all of them are recruited athletes.  Many are probably minorities from disadvantage backgrounds; both W and A place an enormous emphasis on recruiting in that arena and give those candidates even bigger edges than athletes.  And some are probably 800 / 550 types who are math or verbal prodigies.  So basically, from every single sport combined, you are talking about, maybe, 5-15 kids a year, total, in the 1200's, with none below that level.  Maybe it was different in the past, but Amherst and Williams have really restricted so-called "low band" admits since around four-five years ago. 

[Knightstalker]

NESCAC1 is was probably about seven or eight years ago when this kid got accepted, they really wanted this kid, he would have been a D-III road grater he was that big, strong and good.  He did well at Syracuse, they discovered a learning disability that was missed, he actually wasn't as dumb as I made him out, but he had no common sense, still doesn't.  He is a good kid though.

Amherst may have extremely high standards but a degree can basically be bought by an alum for their children.  I do know someone who is a lazy, useless and stupid SOB who has a degree from Amherst because Daddy donated a boatload of money to Amherst which suddenly accepted his son and he graduated with hardly ever going to class.  A wasted spot and degree that could have been given to someone who deserved and earned it.  These are the things I really have a problem with.

[Nescacfan05]

Nescac1 Amherst has have taken students below 1200....everyone in the league has, some have more flex than others. Both Amherst and Williams have the ability to dip farther than most because they will get a 1600 SAT kid to offset the low band. As for Trinity, yes they get more low band kids than  most, but good for them, they had a coach who demanded that and got it, anyone else would get those same kids if they could....Every team has 'dipped' and Amherst and Williams do so as much as anyone if not more so, because they are supposed to have higher standards....Not to say they shouldn't, I am saying it does happen that they do dip for a below 1200 guy

[Jonny Utah]

Nescac1 Amherst has have taken students below 1200....everyone in the league has, some have more flex than others. Both Amherst and Williams have the ability to dip farther than most because they will get a 1600 SAT kid to offset the low band. As for Trinity, yes they get more low band kids than  most, but good for them, they had a coach who demanded that and got it, anyone else would get those same kids if they could....Every team has 'dipped' and Amherst and Williams do so as much as anyone if not more so, because they are supposed to have higher standards....Not to say they shouldn't, I am saying it does happen that they do dip for a below 1200 guy

nescacfan05 your wrong, williams and amherst do not dip below that level as much as other teams do.  At least not now they dont.

[tmerton]

Nescac1 Amherst has have taken students below 1200....everyone in the league has, some have more flex than others. Both Amherst and Williams have the ability to dip farther than most because they will get a 1600 SAT kid to offset the low band. As for Trinity, yes they get more low band kids than  most, but good for them, they had a coach who demanded that and got it, anyone else would get those same kids if they could....Every team has 'dipped' and Amherst and Williams do so as much as anyone if not more so, because they are supposed to have higher standards....Not to say they shouldn't, I am saying it does happen that they do dip for a below 1200 guy

nescacfan05 your wrong, williams and amherst do not dip below that level as much as other teams do.  At least not now they dont.

In the last five years or so Williams and Amherst have tightened their admissions standards for athletes, especially for football.  I believe they've both reduced the number of "tips" by about 10.   A good number of students and faculty apparently would be pleased if the schools pulled "a Swarthmore" and dropped fb altogether.  That won't happen, but fb is clearly under the microscope at those schools and a football player who was accepted 5 years ago would certainly not necessarily get in today.  Of course, like the Ivies, it's tougher to get in than to stay in.

[formerbant10]

I thought that the number of "Tips" is limited by the conference?  Someone posted the formula about them before....something like 2 for every Varsity Sport the College fields, plus an extra 15 or so for Football and I think a few more for Ice Hockey.

I'm not sure though.  If it is true, does that mean that Williams and Amherst use fewer tips than the rest of the conference willingly?? 

And if they are doing that on their own (again, I don't know what the deal is) then the rest of the NESCAC schools should not be looked down upon for following the rules handed down to them by the conference.

[union89]

Nescac1 Amherst has have taken students below 1200....everyone in the league has, some have more flex than others. Both Amherst and Williams have the ability to dip farther than most because they will get a 1600 SAT kid to offset the low band. As for Trinity, yes they get more low band kids than  most, but good for them, they had a coach who demanded that and got it, anyone else would get those same kids if they could....Every team has 'dipped' and Amherst and Williams do so as much as anyone if not more so, because they are supposed to have higher standards....Not to say they shouldn't, I am saying it does happen that they do dip for a below 1200 guy

nescacfan05 your wrong, williams and amherst do not dip below that level as much as other teams do.  At least not now they dont.

If JU (a fellow BoSox fan) says it is so....it must be true and U89 believes it to be Gospel.

[Jonny Utah]

I thought that the number of "Tips" is limited by the conference?  Someone posted the formula about them before....something like 2 for every Varsity Sport the College fields, plus an extra 15 or so for Football and I think a few more for Ice Hockey.

I'm not sure though.  If it is true, does that mean that Williams and Amherst use fewer tips than the rest of the conference willingly?? 

And if they are doing that on their own (again, I don't know what the deal is) then the rest of the NESCAC schools should not be looked down upon for following the rules handed down to them by the conference.

There are no rules set up by the nescac regarding each schools admission policies/financial aid packages.  Each school can do what they want.  Each nescac school basically does it the same though in terms of kids coaches can ask admissions to lower the bar for.  Williams (and probably amherst) have raised the bar in recent years.  (thats what coaches have told me anyway.)

[tmerton]

Here's a 2002 article from the Chronicle of Higher Education giving some background to the situation at Williams (specifically) and the NESCAC in general.

http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i26/26a03701.htm

[Ephs1991]

Tips don't really mean much unless you have a hard working coaching staff and players to back it up.

I guess that's what offends me so much about places like my alma mater, they preach a lot of crap about diversity and accepting all points of view and people from different backgrounds.  What they are is a bunch of elitist pukes who think the only qualification of a student that matters are the scores on a standardized test, which can be improved by paying for the right prep course anyway.  I can't speak for other schools, but I've seen this attitude only get worse at Williams in the last decade or so.  God how I would love for the faculty at these places to actually have to go out and find a real job.

I've met some alums that played for Wesleyan and I feel for those guys, it sounds like they are constantly under siege at that place.