FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

Grabowski · January 26, 2017, 02:43:01 PM

If Brady gets his "one for the thumb" in ten days, you have to work pretty hard to make an argument for anyone else, great as Montana was.

frank uible · January 27, 2017, 05:13:41 AM

Otto Graham played professional football 10 years, took his team to the championship game in each of them and won seven of them.

Grabowski · January 27, 2017, 07:09:59 AM

OK, maybe not everyone would have to work hard on it. Strong argument. Dad's a Redskins fan, taught me more about Sammie Baugh than Otto. I'll read up...

I'll amend my thought to this: Brady will be the best player of the Super Bowl era if he is able to secure #5 a week from Sunday. If they lose, the discussion remains interesting and he's still got a good case.

lumbercat · January 27, 2017, 11:29:50 PM

Grabowski-
Well stated and on the money.
Frank notes Otto Graham's achievements which are notable but your call pertains to the Super Bowl era and your assertion is totally intact.
My cousin was recruited by Otto in the 60's--I'll never forget the phone call my uncle made to my father to report that the great Otto Graham just called their house- my uncle picked up the phone and thought it was a gag-- didn't believe it was Otto and he hung up.....Otto called back and convinced my uncle that he was indeed Automatic Otto who was calling to recruit my cousin to Coast Guard. Great family joke for years to this day.

westcoastDad · January 29, 2017, 07:34:21 AM

You gents are funny. You really sit in front of your respective keyboards and try to convince ....that Otto Graham would be considered a candidate for G.O.A.T ?

Otto stood a whopping 6'1 196, completed 55% of his passes, basically threw an INT for every TD (174/135). I don't think he was taking hits by anyone like Lawrence Taylor nor had to pass against defensive backs the like of Darrelle Revis. Nah, I can't sign up for that comparison.

As for Brady vs Montana

Brady could not have played until age 45 had he been a QB in the Montana era. Today's game is barely above 7 on 7 when it comes to contact allowable on a quarterback. Jack Lambert used to say put a dress on them. He was way ahead of his time. Brady whines after basically any contact he deems "not allowable". We all see it.

LUMBERCAT: You mentioned some older guys.....Namath, Tarkenton, etc when it comes to toughness versus TB12. I just don't remember those guys whining after being hit like tough guy Brady does.

Now, aside from that....let's review the rule changes that you guys say have nothing to do with Brady being able to stand in the pocket for 5-7 seconds like a statue

In today's game a QB cannot be hit knee level, cannot be hit above the shoulder, cannot be hit if he's outside the hashmarks and tosses the ball into the stands (yes, that was grounding back in the day. therefore a qb had to either take the hit or scramble to elude an oncoming rusher), linemen couldn't hold legally between the shoulder pads like they are allowed to now (means edge rusher get to qb faster), defensive backs were allowed to manhandle wide receivers at line of scrimmage (which means qbs had to hold the ball longer....which made them ducks for edge rushers), wide outs running those short patterns across the middle were allowed to be basically close lined and bumped up by linebackers (there was no such thing as defenseless receiver) etc etc.

The game has changed to allow quarterbacks to survive

Let's look at another angle (if you are still over in denial). In today's football game have ya noticed that the defense has basically been disarmed?

leonard marshall, LT, Manley, Harvey Martin, too tall jones, dan Hampton, Richard dent , Gastineau, reggie white, bruce smith, derrick Thomas, alzado, LC, alan page, bubba smith, deacon jones, carl eller, etc.

Do you really think I had to google those names? nah, those types of players were feared EVERY weekend for their ability to not only get to the QB but to knock him OUT of the game. Why? because defenders were allowed to treat QBs like any other player.

staubach, aikman, McMahon, young, simms, kilmer, theisman ..............these guys HAD to leave the game. Not because of age but because of concussions, broken legs (on Monday Night football remember?) etc.

Jim Plunkett, Jaworski, Danny White....these guys got manhandled out of the league.

Your Mr Brady would not have lasted long had the NFL not orchestrated rule changes that prevent the defenders from getting to the qb.

Now, it's hard to compare stats because the league is a passing league now. So, just go to playoff stats

Montana 16 wins 7 losses 63% completion, 45 TDs 21 Ints, 95.6 passer rating, 7.86 yards per attempt, 4 ,Super Bowl wins 0 losses (35pts/g)

Brady 24 wins 9 losses 62.4% completion, 61 TDs 30 Ints, 88.7 passer rating, 6.17 yards per attempt, 4 Super Bowl wins 2 losses (22.5pts/g)

Montana never needed a great kicker or great play by his defense to save his ass. In fact, when needed to deliver........he drove his team downfield and threw a TD pass to John Taylor for the game winner. Brady has 4 wins by collective total of 13 points. thank god for his excellent placekicker.

Lord knows...........they are really really football players

Montana all day baby. Today's game is touch football. Brady can win 10 Super Bowls and play until he's 50. But, he's never had to worry about Lawrence Taylor or Richard Dent coming off the edge trying to take his head off. His whining would have fallen on deaf ears lol.

westcoastDad · January 29, 2017, 07:43:50 AM

Otto Graham?

I guess George Mikan was better than Shaq!

Cousy better than Curry? all those rings.....he has to be better right?

Bird still the best small forward to me.......any era

cmon...........otto graham? let him get hit blindside by LT just once. just once. LT was bigger than the lineman blocking for Mr Graham.

amh63 · January 29, 2017, 09:55:28 AM

WestCoastDad....nice to hear from you, my friend

. You do have a point...historically. Me...not a fan of Otto G. Somewhere in the QB names throw into this discussion, there is one that is missing. My favorite was Johnny Unitas of the Balitimore Colts. Yes, before the franchais moved in the dead of night to the West. There was also Big Daddy Lip....all 6'8" of him who would sort out RBs and throw them aside. At least that was how the press saw it as I did not have TV or could afford to watch live.
In any case, the discussion of greatest must be based on the Modern Era Creation of NFL....the Super Bowl. My wife just informed me that there is another "change" for the upcoming Super Bowl.....a new firm will be able to provide viewers with pizza deliveries quickly from local businesses....a website firm that you can order before the game.
Glad this discussion is not about RBs in the NFL Title games.
WCD....did not miss spell your handle. My auto correct does that all the time.. The best NFL RB in modern era.....Jim Brown! Forget all those USC runners

.

PolarCat · January 29, 2017, 10:07:26 AM

Having trouble following the logic. Otto Graham couldn't be the GOAT because he never played against "tough" defenders like Revis and LT. Tom Brady couldn't be the GOAT even though he beat Revis and LT (plus pretty much every other defender who played the game in the last 16 years because?

?

I have no problem with the NFL trying to increase player safety. Poor McMahon reportedly doesn't even remember he played in a Super Bowl because his bell was rung so often. I guess we will have to wait for the autopsy to know for sure if it was CTE. But one of the "toughest" defenders I've ever seen was Brady's teammate Junior Seau. We all know how that ended.

As a father of a kid currently playing (who watched the Darryl Stingley hit on live TV), I'm fine with toning down the violence. Frankly, I don't think TB12 really cares if you think his childhood idol was the bigger GOAT. Somehow, I think TB12 and Giselle will be off on a luxury yacht cruising the Med when he retires, getting a chuckle out of Montana still hawking Papa John's pizzas and Skechers.

Grabowski · January 29, 2017, 01:51:47 PM

wcd: I know you don't mean to say that since they changed the rules there can never be another GOAT, and that Montana is now champion forever. Or do you?

The only way we can evaluate any of these guys is by looking at how they did against their contemporary peers, and by that measure I'm blown away by the fact that Otto went to the Title Game every year he played, and won seven times. You have a point that the game has changed...more teams, modern training, bigger, faster athletes. Yeah, I get it, the biggest regular on the '72 Dolphins weighed 265. Without spending the time to look it up, I'd expect that Trinity's O-line averaged more than that this year. So does that mean we can't have a good discussion about all this? I think we still can.

I'll grant you there have been times Brady has whined some, but he changed my opinion quite a bit in the AFC Title Game a year ago against Denver. He got pummeled almost every passing play, and stood in there and took it without complaint. Had the Pats taken the three a couple times late in that game he would be prepping for personal SB 8 right now. IMO, LeBron gets more calls than anyone in the NBA and still finds a way to whine about calls ten times a game. That doesn't take away from what an amazing player he is--at least not much.

Anyway, relative to Brady's peers you have two Mannings and Big Ben playing by the same rules and against the same talent w two SB Ws each. Only Payton M. has been in his stat neighborhood consistently. Brees has been in his stat neighborhood but only has one SB. Would you deny that Brady is the best QB of his era? I'll concede that Joe was the best of his, for what it's worth, despite Marino's comparable stats and Bradshaw's identical SB record.

It's an interesting discussion at this point. IMO, Brady can make it less interesting a week from today.

amh63 · January 29, 2017, 02:46:02 PM

Nice post Grabowski!...plus K. Like the deflection "in their era". Boy, what is this board going to chat about After the Superball?....until late Summer/early Fall.

amh63 · January 29, 2017, 03:17:26 PM

Maine1.....your points are well taken. I believe that it is the coaches that can recruit broadly...outside New England states...and bring in talent that will succeed in the CAC. Yes, everything is intertwined...recruiting success, winning tradition, coaching your players, etc., etc. Maybe a gage of where the conference is this season is the success of the schools against outer conference schools. Having two undefeated teams presently ranked no.1 and no. 2 can distort the picture a bit.
Back to my earlier point of outside the NE area.....there are limited talented players that can meet the academic standards of the schools that make up the conference and want to play D3 level. The IVY, UAA, Patriot leagues are also in the running. Very good state schools are in the running too.

Vandy74 · January 29, 2017, 03:59:34 PM

Quote from: amh63 on January 29, 2017, 03:17:26 PM
Maine1.....your points are well taken. I believe that it is the coaches that can recruit broadly...outside New England states...and bring in talent that will succeed in the CAC. Yes, everything is intertwined...recruiting success, winning tradition, coaching your players, etc., etc. Maybe a gage of where the conference is this season is the success of the schools against outer conference schools. Having two undefeated teams presently ranked no.1 and no. 2 can distort the picture a bit.
Back to my earlier point of outside the NE area.....there are limited talented players that can meet the academic standards of the schools that make up the conference and want to play D3 level. The IVY, UAA, Patriot leagues are also in the running. Very good state schools are in the running too.

amh63

Good post but I believe it was meant for the WBB board.

At least you're posting my friend. I've been much too silent this winter.

PolarCat · January 29, 2017, 04:49:50 PM

Quote from: Vandy74 on January 29, 2017, 03:59:34 PM
Good post but I believe it was meant for the WBB board. At least you're posting my friend. I've been much too silent this winter.

Hopefully that's because you've been tearing it up in the Snow Bowl. Hey. WLAX practice starts in 17 days; why not help me bring that board out of hibernation? Lots of good discussion on the "other" WLAX board, but the D3 one is deader than Hillary's political aspirations.

Vandy74 · January 29, 2017, 08:17:03 PM

Quote from: PolarCat on January 29, 2017, 04:49:50 PM
Quote from: Vandy74 on January 29, 2017, 03:59:34 PM
Good post but I believe it was meant for the WBB board. At least you're posting my friend. I've been much too silent this winter.

Hopefully that's because you've been tearing it up in the Snow Bowl. Hey. WLAX practice starts in 17 days; why not help me bring that board out of hibernation? Lots of good discussion on the "other" WLAX board, but the D3 one is deader than Hillary's political aspirations.

My first love is DIII hoops PolarCat. Pepin Gymnasium will be my favorite hangout for a while longer.

Regarding WLAX, I'm more than a bit bummed out that MC's defending national champions have only 6 home dates this spring and that I'll miss one of them for a fantasy baseball draft. It's the April 1 game against Amherst so I'm counting on amh63 to watch that one for me. At least the scheduling gods have finally decided to wait until March to begin the season.

But this is a football board so let's (try to) say something relevant. Tom Tom might be a whiner but he never misses a game unless that ballsy Roger Goodell gets involved. Jim Brown would have been great in any era. Phil Simms did have surgery to repair a torn labrum following the 1993 season but he was expected to fully recover. He was coming off what arguably was the third best season of his career. 1994 was the first season the NFL had a salary cap. That was the key factor in the Giants (foolish) decision to let him go.

Let's close this out on a happy note for Pats fans. Unless he has tickets to sit in the stands, Eli isn't coming.

westcoastDad · January 30, 2017, 04:37:49 AM

Grabowski: greatest of era (to me) is definitely more appropriate. some athletes are probably transferable (Jim Brown). and much as I think Brady is a great QB of today's era.........I really think the rule changes play a significant role. sure, we can compare him to others in his era (brees, manning, rothisberger) but that's probably where the best coach of this era comes into play.

marino had great stats and no doubt may have been the most prolific passer of his era. but, he was a statue and in big games his style seemed to fold to the pressure of an oncoming rush. marino probably thrives tremendously in today's era.

bradshaw despite his 4 super bowl wins has really never been given or even entertained the title as best ever. those steeler teams were stacked with talent and his stats were nothing special. he threw the deep ball and Stallworth and Swann made plays over my bridesmaid Cowboys defensive backs. Staubach probably ranked ahead in many eyes. Montana has always been there.

wcd: I know you don't mean to say that since they changed the rules there can never be another GOAT, and that Montana is now champion forever. Or do you?

The only way we can evaluate any of these guys is by looking at how they did against their contemporary peers, and by that measure I'm blown away by the fact that Otto went to the Title Game every year he played, and won seven times. You have a point that the game has changed...more teams, modern training, bigger, faster athletes. Yeah, I get it, the biggest regular on the '72 Dolphins weighed 265. Without spending the time to look it up, I'd expect that Trinity's O-line averaged more than that this year. So does that mean we can't have a good discussion about all this? I think we still can.

I'll grant you there have been times Brady has whined some, but he changed my opinion quite a bit in the AFC Title Game a year ago against Denver. He got pummeled almost every passing play, and stood in there and took it without complaint. Had the Pats taken the three a couple times late in that game he would be prepping for personal SB 8 right now. IMO, LeBron gets more calls than anyone in the NBA and still finds a way to whine about calls ten times a game. That doesn't take away from what an amazing player he is--at least not much.

Anyway, relative to Brady's peers you have two Mannings and Big Ben playing by the same rules and against the same talent w two SB Ws each. Only Payton M. has been in his stat neighborhood consistently. Brees has been in his stat neighborhood but only has one SB. Would you deny that Brady is the best QB of his era? I'll concede that Joe was the best of his, for what it's worth, despite Marino's comparable stats and Bradshaw's identical SB record.

It's an interesting discussion at this point. IMO, Brady can make it less interesting a week from today.
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