FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[dirtybirds8-0]

Well said....well said.

[speedy]

1)Actually Hamilton, (and Union) have optional SAT admissions policies as well.  And...in order to get some equity, there might have to be some change in admissions policies, (or at least a common formula between nescac schools) in order to make a fair system..(like the IVY leagues).  . .  .

Making SATs mandatory at the SAT optional schools is an absurd proposition. The NESCAC schools that have dropped the SAT requirement are not about to agree to reinstate the SATs because that's what some whiney coach at Williams wants.

[Jonny Utah]

1)Actually Hamilton, (and Union) have optional SAT admissions policies as well.  And...in order to get some equity, there might have to be some change in admissions policies, (or at least a common formula between nescac schools) in order to make a fair system..(like the IVY leagues).  . .  .

Making SATs mandatory at the SAT optional schools is an absurd proposition. The NESCAC schools that have dropped the SAT requirement are not about to agree to reinstate the SATs because that's what some whiney coach at Williams wants.

Well first of all, Barnard is only being singled out because he wrote the article but he shares the opinion of not only some Williams people but many more around the nescac as well.

I agree that it probably wont happen BUT, the Ivy leagues came together and drafted a policy that made certain schools change some admission policies at all schools. 

And I dont know how true it is but the writer in that nescacnation article from a few years back stated that Bowdoins no sat policy had something to do with the hockey program not being able to get enough guys in to the school in the first place!  If that is true, then maybe Bowdoin would be able to rethink their policy for athletes at least. 

I dont think anyone has questioned Bowdoin or Bates' admissions policies in the first place but I would think that if a coach wants to admit a kid from one of his "tips" then an SAT easily could be a factor if some nescac rule was set up in the first place, seeing that these tips are starting to get frowned upon anyway.

Bottomline is that the nescac and IVY leagues are conferences that prides themselves on equity among schools that have a common goal.  This is what makes these conferences so great.  The equity in the nescac has been shaken up in recent years and something will be done about it.

There is nothing wrong with the nescac operating like the SEC or the Big Ten. (amherst being a northwestern or vanderblilt while Trinity is a Michigan or Florida) but I dont think that is what the nescac wants.  They want to be like the Ivy leagues but they cant be with the current admissions differences between the schools .

[Trin9-0]

It is uncertain what the NESCAC will do in regards to making a push for changes in the admissions policies at member schools. However, I think it is interesting that the schools who would have to alter their SAT requirements are traditionally bottom tier (or at best middle of the pack) teams in football.

Are these schools to be applauded for not taking advantage of an admissions policy that could potentially greatly improve their athletic programs or are their other admission requirements so strict that the SAT scores are truly irrelevant? Or could it be that these schools just have a difficult time recruiting athletes due to other factores (i.e. location, social atmosphere, facilities etc.)?

[LinemenRathletes2]

Trin8-0: Great, concise post. The answer is more than likely a mix of many of these factors you mention. Another factor to be considered is the endowment for some of these schools is nowhere near that of a Williams or an Amherst or even Trinity which I will assume is up there (correct me if I'm wrong). This means that because there are no scholarships, there is not as much financial aid to offer recruits. If a high school recruit is looking at some mid-to-bottom of the pack football necscas, he is not likely to be snatched away by the williams and amhersts and trinitys but rather by a school in a different league that may have lower admissions standards.

Whereas a recruit might require a tip at a nescac school, he could be in great academic standing at somewhere else, meriting financial aid based on his academics plus athletics. Nescac admissions dept.'s, though they may accept him on the coaches tip, may not give this guy the financial aid package his family needs because he doesn't meet their academic standards, forcing him to go elsewhere. Size of endowment also obviously effects college spending... putting them in a situation where they have to choose between spending on academic resources or athletic. If a program is struggling to get funding from the school, it shows, and recruits may recognize this and be scared away...

I think that it is important to recognize that though some schools do not require SAT's, it does not by any means indicate that they do not have stringent admissions standards, but rather that they recognize the SAT as a flawed entity, not to be depended on. If anything, the recent SAT glitches that have come to light should point to that, and even without those glitches there is a good deal of research indicating that SAT are racially, culturally, and economically biased. This is the reason that some schools don't require SAT's, not because they wish to ease admissions standards.

I also think that admissions dept.'s in these schools are very wary of the fact that coaches could try and manipulate these standards, which is why they remain strict with other admissions standards for athletes, and all applicants in general.

[Jonny Utah]

Trin8-0: Great, concise post. The answer is more than likely a mix of many of these factors you mention. Another factor to be considered is the endowment for some of these schools is nowhere near that of a Williams or an Amherst or even Trinity which I will assume is up there (correct me if I'm wrong). This means that because there are no scholarships, there is not as much financial aid to offer recruits. If a high school recruit is looking at some mid-to-bottom of the pack football necscas, he is not likely to be snatched away by the williams and amhersts and trinitys but rather by a school in a different league that may have lower admissions standards.

Whereas a recruit might require a tip at a nescac school, he could be in great academic standing at somewhere else, meriting financial aid based on his academics plus athletics. Nescac admissions dept.'s, though they may accept him on the coaches tip, may not give this guy the financial aid package his family needs because he doesn't meet their academic standards, forcing him to go elsewhere. Size of endowment also obviously effects college spending... putting them in a situation where they have to choose between spending on academic resources or athletic. If a program is struggling to get funding from the school, it shows, and recruits may recognize this and be scared away...

I think that it is important to recognize that though some schools do not require SAT's, it does not by any means indicate that they do not have stringent admissions standards, but rather that they recognize the SAT as a flawed entity, not to be depended on. If anything, the recent SAT glitches that have come to light should point to that, and even without those glitches there is a good deal of research indicating that SAT are racially, culturally, and economically biased. This is the reason that some schools don't require SAT's, not because they wish to ease admissions standards.

I also think that admissions dept.'s in these schools are very wary of the fact that coaches could try and manipulate these standards, which is why they remain strict with other admissions standards for athletes, and all applicants in general.

Dont confuse endowment with how much financial aid a school gives out.  The two are totally seperate.  Harvard has more money than the State of Massachusetts but still gives out the same amount of financial aid as Umass Boston.

[LinemenRathletes2]

I suppose I am showing my ignorance, but I understand that students loans come from Dept. of Education, however does each individual school not provide money to be made available for financial aid?

[Trin9-0]

linemen: Trinity's endowment is actually very small especially compared to the giant endowments of Williams and Amherst (no phallus jokes please) and the college is rumored to be in crisis mode financially.

Just a side note, endowment size is one of the key factors in determining the US News & World Report rankings for US colleges, and Trinity's lacking endowment is a major reason why it is the bottom among NESCAC schools.

It aint jus cuz we cants reed good. 

[LinemenRathletes2]

a few nescacs are struggling as i understand it

[LinemenRathletes2]

ha, no offense, i guess i just assumed size of endowment was directly corrolated to the amount of popped pink collars spotted frolicking around campus

[Jonny Utah]

The endowment is like some special bank account that the schools never ever touch.

[LinemenRathletes2]

Utah! gimme two!

[formerbant10]

I wouldn't say that Trinity is necessarily in Crisis mode financially, but it's very safe to say that the Bants are not at the comfort level of Williams or Amherst.

When it comes to facilities and sports budgets, I wouldn't be surprised if Trin is at the bottom of those lists as well (save a few sports....Squash, Men's and Women's Lax, Football).  The few sports that have their budgets straight have received private donations recently.  If the issue isn't controlled soon, it's possible that a sport might lose its Varsity status......but I doubt that will happen.

Linemen....if only the parents of those pink collar poppers put a little donation in the mail the endowment might grow. 

[dirtybirds8-0]

I would like to elaborate upon Trin8-0's comments about the "location, social atmosphere, facilities, etc..."  This is what many of the current posters do not understand about Trinity and its recruiting efforts.  Trinity has made a HUGE effort to upgrade their facilities, increase student athlete awareness on campus, and bring in elite coaches throughout the various sports.  This can be seen in the squash program (although I hate talking about it).

When we played other teams throughout the league it was obvious that little had been done to advance their programs over the years (Middlebury aside; but look at them...lacrosse and hockey!).  I think these expensive yet necessary improvements to the programs make all the difference to incoming athletes and students.  You have to remember that all colleges and universities are businesses.  Just like any business in the "real world" they must maintain a competitive advantage over their piers or they will eventually go bankrupt (for lack of a better term).  This is essentially what has been happening throughout the NESCAC football programs.  What Trinity did was assess their current position in the market and derive a strategy to improve the business.  

Here is what they did

1. Sink capital into a floundering business (updated fields and weight room).

2. Implement a plan (Win a championship in 4 years; 1999-2003)

3. Hire the right people to run the business (Trinity brought in the right coaches; Priore, Hankard (was already there),Behrman, Devanney, Jones, Pio, Darr (already there).

4. Hire the right "employees" (Priore's first recruiting class; Pierandri, Carillo, Tanner, Collins, Glasz, Creed, Kuehn, Whipple, Mullaney, Herzog, Bowes, Sexton, Robertson, Wahl, Porter....all of these players started and played through 4 years...all graduated...some with honors)

5. Hard and sometimes unbearable work (lifting, running, studying)...trust me on this one.

RESULT OF PLAN

Championship in 4 years (2003; #1 ranked defense in the nation D3)

Complete domination 4 years running.

All seniors graduate; some with honors.


Post Graduation

Successful leaders in the professional world

There you have it... if you apply these basic strategies to any athletic, business, or social effort you are bound have some sort of success, or you would be pissed of if you did not attain any.

[bant551]

But dirtybirds, will you at least adopt Bulldog's contingency plan in case that strategy doesn't work?  His program calls for an intense program of weeping and sobbing, smeared with some blubbering complaints, and served on a bed of sweet tears.