FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[frank uible]

Here's hoping Rocco is as good as his name!

[nescac1]

Amen, Frank.  Actually, the entire Williams group has some seriously interesting names going for them ... I mean, Xander Utecht?? 

On another note, nice story about an Eph football player who suffered a career-ending football injury:

http://ephsports.williams.edu/sports/fball/2017-18/releases/20171220oo0ke5

A good reminder of the benefits of choosing NESCAC even when football doesn't work out for one reason or another ...

[nescac1]

I imagine this article will inspire some discussion:

https://slate.com/sports/2017/12/wesleyan-university-football-is-good-business.html

But of the many controversial things here, this quote from Wesleyan's President (taking a shot at Amherst) stood out most to me:

The schism seen in Middletown also isn't unique to Wesleyan. Last year, the disclosure of racist and misogynistic emails written by male members of the cross-country team roiled Amherst. A subsequent review of the place of athletics on Amherst's campus raised concerns about racial and socioeconomic divides between athletes and non-athletes. Wesleyan's president says that's not an issue on his campus. "Amherst is creating a culture where the most important allegiance is to the team," Roth says. "If I thought we were doing that, I'd get rid of the sport."

... Ummm, really?  I have seen no evidence that Amherst's athletics culture is any different from Wesleyan's or, for that matter, any other NESCAC school's. If anything, I'd say there is a bigger divide between Wesleyan's athletics culture and VERY progressive non-athlete culture than is typically seen at other NESCAC schools ...

...

Roth also takes a shot at athletic facilities spending at some of Wesleyan's rivals, which may or may not be fair ($200 million for an athletics center at a school Colby's size is surely a lot of dough), and may or may not be a product of the fact that Wesleyan has a MUCH smaller per-student endowment so, consequently, doesn't have the resources to build those sort of facilities even if it so desired...

[wildcat11]

My god...football players sit together in the dining hall and are ECONOMIC MAJORS!!!!!  The horror of it all....

[Jonny Utah]

My god...football players sit together in the dining hall and are ECONOMIC MAJORS!!!!!  The horror of it all....

Lol I laughed at that too.  In Massachusetts they don't even call it "physical education" anymore, they call it "wellness".  I'm guessing Wesleyan and Amherst don't have Wellness majors though either.  Is economics the new sociology major?  I always thought economics classes were boring and not easy by any means.

[nescac1]

Economics has always been very popular with recruited athletes, and football players in particular, at NESCAC schools.  There are lots of reasons for this but a big part is a correlation with the career focus of many NESCAC football players, who disproportionately go into business / consulting / investment banking / finance right out of college.  At least at Williams, and I imagine elsewhere, Econ can be extremely difficult or not terribly so, depending on which classes you take.  If you take a very math-heavy Econ courseload (which is essentially required if you want to, for example, go to grad school in Econ), the major is typically far more difficult than if you avoid the advanced econometrics and game theory type classes.

[JoeBag]

I imagine this article will inspire some discussion:

https://slate.com/sports/2017/12/wesleyan-university-football-is-good-business.html

But of the many controversial things here, this quote from Wesleyan's President (taking a shot at Amherst) stood out most to me:

The schism seen in Middletown also isn't unique to Wesleyan. Last year, the disclosure of racist and misogynistic emails written by male members of the cross-country team roiled Amherst. A subsequent review of the place of athletics on Amherst's campus raised concerns about racial and socioeconomic divides between athletes and non-athletes. Wesleyan's president says that's not an issue on his campus. "Amherst is creating a culture where the most important allegiance is to the team," Roth says. "If I thought we were doing that, I'd get rid of the sport."

... Ummm, really?  I have seen no evidence that Amherst's athletics culture is any different from Wesleyan's or, for that matter, any other NESCAC school's. If anything, I'd say there is a bigger divide between Wesleyan's athletics culture and VERY progressive non-athlete culture than is typically seen at other NESCAC schools ...

...

Roth also takes a shot at athletic facilities spending at some of Wesleyan's rivals, which may or may not be fair ($200 million for an athletics center at a school Colby's size is surely a lot of dough), and may or may not be a product of the fact that Wesleyan has a MUCH smaller per-student endowment so, consequently, doesn't have the resources to build those sort of facilities even if it so desired...

The former Wesleyan administrator I spoke with, who held various posts at the school (including in admissions) between 2001 and 2015, told me these "tipped" students often come from the men's "helmet sports" of lacrosse, hockey, and football. The former administrator says the SAT scores for this group of students tended to be in the 1,100 range on the 1,600 scale compared to around 1,400 for other students. The administrator added that, in his experience, the gap in academic credentials between white men who got into Wesleyan as "tipped" athletes and white men who were admitted to the school as non-athletes was the widest of any demographic group.


1,100 for tipped athletes at Wes??
NESCACMAN- repeat after me............Middletown State!....... Middletown State!......Go State!

[lumbercat]

Anyone who thinks that the rise of the Wesleyan program in recent years occurred solely due to the Whales coaching and leadership skills is sadly mistaken.

The Whale is a consummate sales guy who convinced the Wes administration to give the program much more latitude on admissions to make them competitive with Trinity and more importantly the little 3.

The conversation goes like this.......Prexy says "we want you leave Williams and come back to your alma mater. We need to win the little 3 and stop getting our butts kicked by Trinity.... what do you need to accomplish that" ?

They made a deal very quickly. Wes admission leniency was the lead factor along with a number of other things. Winning is expensive in many ways in the Nescac.

Same kind of deal took place at Tufts.

[lumbercat]

Love the term often bandied about by Nescac ADs- "Helmet Sports"......... evil and expensive......... and in peril at some point in the future.....yikes

[Mr. Ypsi]

Screw the lowered SAT cut-off for admissions - what are the GPAs and graduation rates of Wesleyan athletes vs. other students?  If they are reasonably comparable, then three cheers for Wesleyan.

BTW, this 'rant' comes from a retired college educator and a guy who had well over 1500 SAT when 1600 was perfect.  In some ways I envy schools who can admit almost no one under X scores.  But I truly ADMIRE schools who can admit students who score vastly lower on standardized tests but EDUCATE them to their own best potential.  Do some of you remember when educational institutions at least professed to actually educate, rather than just perpetuate inherited advantage?  (And NUMEROUS studies have shown that SAT scores are HIGHLY correlated to inherited advantage.) 

[nescac1]

Mr. Ypsi, I agree that SAT scores at times play too great a role in admissions decisions.  But the issue is that there are lots of impressive kids out there with low SAT scores who have ZERO chance of even being considered for admission into a place like Wesleyan despite stellar resumes in all other respects -- unless they happen to be really good football players.   

Now, personally, I am OK with reasonably lowered standards for star athletes, but it's not really fair to frame the issue as being about giving kids with lower SAT scores a chance, generally, when in reality the issue is, the only applicants with certain SAT scores who stand any sort of chance are star football players (among a few other categories of applicants).  Also, since at least at NESCAC schools, a disproportionate percentage of tipped recruited athletes are from prep schools and/or have higher incomes than the average applicants, it's not like taking a kid from, say, Exeter or Deerfield with an 1150 SAT does anything to change the narrative of perpetuating inherited advantage ....

Again, I'm not someone who is against admissions concessions for athletes.  But the argument should be framed in a fair way, is all. 

[JEFFFAN]

I imagine this article will inspire some discussion:

https://slate.com/sports/2017/12/wesleyan-university-football-is-good-business.html

But of the many controversial things here, this quote from Wesleyan's President (taking a shot at Amherst) stood out most to me:

The schism seen in Middletown also isn’t unique to Wesleyan. Last year, the disclosure of racist and misogynistic emails written by male members of the cross-country team roiled Amherst. A subsequent review of the place of athletics on Amherst’s campus raised concerns about racial and socioeconomic divides between athletes and non-athletes. Wesleyan’s president says that’s not an issue on his campus. “Amherst is creating a culture where the most important allegiance is to the team,” Roth says. “If I thought we were doing that, I’d get rid of the sport.”

... Ummm, really?  I have seen no evidence that Amherst's athletics culture is any different from Wesleyan's or, for that matter, any other NESCAC school's. If anything, I'd say there is a bigger divide between Wesleyan's athletics culture and VERY progressive non-athlete culture than is typically seen at other NESCAC schools ...

...

Roth also takes a shot at athletic facilities spending at some of Wesleyan's rivals, which may or may not be fair ($200 million for an athletics center at a school Colby's size is surely a lot of dough), and may or may not be a product of the fact that Wesleyan has a MUCH smaller per-student endowment so, consequently, doesn't have the resources to build those sort of facilities even if it so desired...

Unfortunate that the Wesleyan president couldn’t pronounce the word JEALOUS as it relates to his so-called bretheren up in the hills and valleys of Massachusetts.  Bunch of crybaby wannabes. 

[amh63]

JEFFFAN....well said!   
Thought I would drop by on this board....boy!  How did the topics go so astray??  The best thing Prez Roth did was to bring the "Whale" to Middletown, imho.  The college with the oldest continuous football playing field in the USA was in a mess financially...endownment draning down and its sports teams not too competitive.  Today, the "Little Three" Title in football is meaningful.  Wes is now on a sound financial path, IMO.
Sad to read Prez Roth's  remarks.
Need to point out that the Amherst's  men's XC situation has been resolved.  A year shutdown and a new HC has showed with positive results this season.  A Nescac title and a 4th place finish in the NCAA!...highest ever for Amherst.
Amherst and Williams do have a sort of different campus culture than Wesleyan.  Economics and science departments are well attended by student-athletes...math and stats courses too. Amherst's latest Nobel Prize winner...this year...is in Physics...2nd one.  Two other Nobel winners were in economics.
Williams has upgraded its Science buildings recently and Amherst will finish it's new 240,000 plus sq.ft Science building this coming Summer. 
Amherst's recent WBB POY, Doswell, was a Physics major!...like her mother at Mt. Holyoke .

[hamgrand]

Merry Christmas everyone!

This latest discussion is pretty humorous.  I think many of us are saying the same thing in different ways.  Lets not forget that the NESCACs are some of the best schools in the world and the average student population is much more gifted than the normal population.  Even the tipped athletes are pretty smart and much above the average.  And I think the 1,100 SAT tipped athletes are the exception - not the rule.  Although below the average NESCAC student, besides being pretty bright, most of these athletes have some other qualities that often far offset the small difference in smarts ... like Leadership and Grit!

I have first hand knowledge of an athlete that needed a tip at every NESCAC including Trinity.  Might have even ranked very near the bottom of his NESCAC graduating class with a 3.0 GPA.  And he is excelling on the bond desk of a major investment bank.  Obviously many of these tipped athletes do extremely well in their careers!

The discussion brings back a memory from my college days.  The Cornell - Harvard Hockey games were always very spirited and there is quite a rivalry between the schools in that sport. Of course no one can doubt Harvard's outstanding reputation - but urban legend is that its the hardest IVY to get into and the easiest to stay in.  Likewise - legend says Cornell is the easiest to get in and hardest to stay in.  Who knows - but I remember the Harvard students cheering STATE SCHOOL ... STATE SCHOOL ... STATE SCHOOL at the Cornell student body.  The Cornell faithful would chant back ...  It's alright, its OK, your going to work for us someday!

I guess my point is - I would personally hire many of these NESCAC athletes - tipped or not - over many of their more academically advanced classmates.

[frank uible]

Depends on the nature of the job.