FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Jonny Utah]

Speedy, just because Williams has the largest endowment in the league, that does not mean it gives out the most money to students, or that it puts Williams at an advantage in recruiting.  I would still say that even for Williams athletes, over 50% dont even get any financial aid and dont need it in the first place.  Id say nescac schools are about even when it comes to giving financial aid.

You are right about probably not being able to change the admissions standards at other nescac schools but I do think a bottomline SAT score could be used for the SAT required schools at least.  There have not been many complaints about schools like Bowdoin anyway from what Ive heard.


And formerbant10, there were many complaints about past Williams teams and I can also tell you personally that some of their best players that earned them national rankings, (nogelo, Clark,) were d1/Ivy leauge smartguys that didnt get tipped into Williams.  I cant speak for hockey or past lacrosse for that matter but I think in principal, Barnard had a good point.

I think if each admissions dept. came together and had some sort of index the nescac would have more parity.  That doesnt mean Tufts has to have the same SAT minumum as Amherst, but at least some sort of paramater could be set.

Bottom line,  Farley and Priore were great coaches who would have won despite parity.  Besides this board, Ive heard many people grumbling about the current state of the nescac.

[bant551]

I think the guy is a jerk and I don't know where on earth he thinks he gets the power to force other schools to conform to his ideal vision of a system that would forever guarantee that his teams would have first choice of the best players available.

Maybe Williams thought he went a little too far when he saw Williams was lacking a little bit of team speed, so he petitioned to the league to mandate that the football fields have to be smaller.

[Jonny Utah]

Well Ive met Barnard before and Ive heard a lot about him from my friends that have played for him.  Hes a good guy and just wants the nescac to be like the Ivy league where no team dominates and good standards are set.  Williams baseball has basically been the same for the past 15 years since hes been coaching.

Its not like he wants to install "the barnard system" that he made up or something.  He wants to set up a system like the Ivy league and he even says that in his letter. 

And I give him credit for actually comming out, writing a letter  like that, showing his feelings and starting a discussion and signing his name to it.

Harvard and Yale dont benefit at all from the Ivy league index, why would Williams or Amherst benefit from one?

[speedy]

Speedy, just because Williams has the largest endowment in the league, that does not mean it gives out the most money to students, or that it puts Williams at an advantage in recruiting.  I would still say that even for Williams athletes, over 50% dont even get any financial aid and dont need it in the first place.  Id say nescac schools are about even when it comes to giving financial aid. . .

Williams mega-endowment puts it had a huge advantage in the financial aid game and inevitably gives Williams an advantage in the battle for athletes (and other students).

The data compiled by College Board  for each school (I believe it's for this past year's freshman class) shows that Williams provided financial aid packages to 49% of the that class and covered 70% of the tab on the average for each aid recipent (an average package of $31,653). Trinity, in contrast, provided financial aid packages to only 27% of the class and covered only 58% of each recipient's costs (an average package of $26,687).

These numbers indicate a yawning gap between Williams and the financially weaker schools. This enormous disparity in terms of financial capabilities of the various NESCAC members means many things in practical terms but one is that Williams has a huge advantage in terms of ability to provide financial aid to athletes and another is that it is able to (and does) pump many more dollars into its athletic programs than can any other NESCAC school.

It would be just as logical to impose uniform standards for financial aid that prevent any one NESCAC school from doling out more financial aid to football players than any other as it would be to impose uniform admissions standards on all NESCAC schools.

[Jonny Utah]

"It would be just as logical to impose uniform standards for financial aid that prevent any one NESCAC school from doling out more financial aid to football players than any other as it would be to impose uniform admissions standards on all NESCAC schools." -Speedy

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Your absoutly right about this point speedy, but the financial aid is still need based.  If  49% of Williams frosh recieved 70% of their tab covered  and 27% of trinity frosh got 58% of their tabs picked up, then maybe 49% of Williams frosh needed 70% of their tab covered and 27% of trinity frosh needed 58% of their tabs picked up.

Thats what each schools financial policies are based on anyway.  I dont think schools generally deviate from that formula.

[speedy]

"It would be just as logical to impose uniform standards for financial aid that prevent any one NESCAC school from doling out more financial aid to football players than any other as it would be to impose uniform admissions standards on all NESCAC schools." -Speedy

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Your absoutly right about this point speedy, but the financial aid is still need based.  If  49% of Williams frosh recieved 70% of their tab covered  and 27% of trinity frosh got 58% of their tabs picked up, then maybe 49% of Williams frosh needed 70% of their tab covered and 27% of trinity frosh needed 58% of their tabs picked up.

Thats what each schools financial policies are based on anyway.  I dont think schools generally deviate from that formula.

That's correct - but it also means that Trinity is simply not in a position to offer as much aid or to offer aid to as many students as Williams. In other words, if one were to assume that Trinity and Williams had equal admissions standards for football players, Williams would have a huge advantage because it could offer aid to a larger percentage of its football players and could provide larger financial aid packages to each one.

I knew that there was disparity among the NESCACs in terms of financial aid capabilities but it's actually greater than I thought. What we don't know, of course, is whether any (or all) NESCAC schools distribute financial aid in a disproportionate way to athletes (i.e., more aid to athletes than to nonatheltes on a per-capita basis). The NCAA has adopted rules that are supposed to curtail that practice in the future (through stringent reporting requirements) but I am not sure that they are yet fully in effect.

[Jonny Utah]

True, but it doesnt really say where the money is comming from either.  The federal government is supplying most of that money not the colleges.  Williams has about a billion and a quarter in endowment and trinity has over a quarter of a bilion.

[bant551]

Most kids choosing between both also will choose Williams.  Plus, they get far more Ivy rejects (good academic qualifications, but just a tick below Ivy-quality athletes).  

I'm not sure why people always neglect to mention that.  Its such a blatantly obvious -- and huge -- recruiting advantage.

The thing that drives me absolutely crazy is that clearly, Williams had SOME sort of MASSIVE advantage for so many years.  I mean, Priore is accused of breaking all these straw rules, yet after the RECORD-BREAKING WINNING STREAK, he still has less of a winning percentage than Farley, who was at Williams for decades.

On top of all that, Williams still has been playing winning football since the period of ridiculous dominance recently came to an end.  They just haven't been winning at the same exact rate (an average of about 1 loss per year during Farley's reign).

Farley was clearly a very good coach (no matter how good your players, that is a ridiculous winning percentage), but it is absolutely LUDICROUS to argue that another big factor was'nt some sort of blatant recruiting advantage.

Now that they've had a few not-so-dominant seasons, they have to try to force other schools to change admissions policies?  Who do they think they are?

[Jonny Utah]

Bottom line:  Williams football is done if the school doenst change its admissions policies.  If the football team cant get more than 10 guys a year with sub1350 Sat scores, they wont be competitive at the top the nescac.

[bant551]

Thats fine.  That is a decision for Williams to make.  Just as it is a decision for each other school to make.

Unless, of course, there are special circumstances, like Mr. Barnard's team not winning.

[speedy]

True, but it doesnt really say where the money is comming from either.  The federal government is supplying most of that money not the colleges.  Williams has about a billion and a quarter in endowment and trinity has over a quarter of a bilion.

Federal Pell grants max out at $4,050 and very few students are eligible for the full amount (the size of the grant is determined by family income and would likely be much smaller for the typcial NESCAC financial aid recipeinet). As a result, the school absorbs the costs of the vast majority of financial aid. There are some federal loans too but most NESCAC schools try keep loans to 20% of or less of the aid package.

The billion dollar difference (or thereabouts) between the Williams endowment and the Trinity endowment gives Williams the ability to do all kinds of things that Trinity cannot contemplate - like providing financial aid to almost 50% of the student body. The financial aid disparity is in fact a direct function of the Williams endowment as that would be the source for most financial aid dollars.

[Nescacfan05]

I really think Barnhard's rant doesn't make alot of sense.....WHY? Well he is bitching cause Williams isn't winning the league....Why does he want an index, to bring back to earth the other teams that have found good, bright kids and got it done on the field. Every school get below the margin tips, some more some less, some each school has to recruit differently, some have to work harder than others. Williams won the damn directors cup for the billionth year in a row, I think their athletics dept. is fine and the system has worked.... The 14 tips or whatever the number maybe in the NESCAC has created parody in the league, and Trinity had a combination of finding the kids in their niche, and good coaching and they won.......Simple as that, maybe they got some kids that are 'quote' below the margin, but we talk as if a 1000-1100 SAT kids in a moron....which is not the case, every school has kids like that. Colby is the same way, maybe Williams should have worried about Colby instead of Trinity and they would have played a better game....Bowdoin same thing got things turned around by finding there niche recruiting....ALL the schools have difficulty recruiting, yes some may have more tips than others....But an AI won't change much.....Penn gets more below the margin tips than Harvard, but Harvard has a reputation.....similar to Trinity and Williams....It all comes down to recruiting and finding your niche.Every school has a national reputation and get kids nationally...,maybe you gotta work, but jeez you only play 8 games...and recruiting is don by FEB....many schools recruit up until the start of camp in August, or have rolling admissions...

In the NESCAC the AI won't come around because that would imply athletics is a priority and the NESCAC does not want that..(Presidents don't) and Barnhard unfortunatley barked up the wrong tree and is now out of a job, sometimes when you got it good (and a FT  coaching job at Williams is pretty good, keep your mouth shut, or in the least temper your comments) if he was the baseball coach at Bates maybe his gripe would have better support, but you are at WILLIAMS, and the attitude of if we are not the best something is wrong is tired and old, get off your pompous high horse and work at it....

Sorry for my rant...tension breaker had to be done...

It comes down to know you school, sell your strengths, find your niche....

[Jonny Utah]

In the NESCAC the AI won't come around because that would imply athletics is a priority and the NESCAC does not want that

1- the index is something the Ivy league adpoted exactly for that reason where athletics WONT be a priority.

2-  I do agree about Barnard bitching about one part of his letter. (where he mentions williams has not made the nescac or national playoffs in the last 2 years.....)

3- I dont think Barnard ever benefited from Williams tips.  (his record was worse when williams was letting in more kids)

4- Does anyone know for sure whether or not Barnard got fired or if he quit?  Everyone is speculating on here about that.

5- Football fans, (me included and I assume most of the people on this board, and Im sure barnard as well) dont care about the directors cup.  The directors cup is won with womens (and mens) swimming, tennis, golf, field hockey, field hockey, skiiing and other sports that I dont care about anyway.

6- No one says people that got 1000-1100 on the SATs is a moron.  But I guarentee that Trinity College wants its average SAT score to be around 1350.

7-The difference between Penn tips and harvard tips is about 10 times smaller than the difference between Williams and Trinity tips.

[Nescacfan05]

GOD...Sounds like Im asking for forgiveness of something....

AI in the nescac is perception vs reality...Presidents shot down the 9th game 2 years ago because it would signal an 'intensifying of football"....AI to them, would signal the same thing.....yes we could argue the other way, but most of these presidents don't....Any changes in the NESCAC are in the president's hand, period.

As for the Penn/Harvard I was talking exact numbers, but Penn get more low bands in the AI than Yale/Harvard/Prineton......all I was saying is some schools get more, somw don't but Trinity finds their kids because they worked to carve a niche in recruiting, while Williams sits back and uses the line 'We are the best college in the nation, you are making a big mistake (insert school) if you go their.......'

oh and the whole tip thing was started by Williams, and so they got all the other schools in the league to buy in so they could maintain dominance in the league, it was a knee-jerk reaction to the books, Game of Life and Reclaiming the Game....

I for one like the fact Trinity is dominanting the league, because it is not Williams.... eventually they will lose one...when??? I just hope it is not Williams just for the fact NESCAC will never hear the end of it.

[Jonny Utah]

yea i will change that back in a few....