FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[frank uible]

speedy: Why don't Trinity, Amherst and Williams join to ignore the Rule of 75 and then look for NESCAC's reaction? Sounds as if NESCAC is an elite club where all the members are equal, but some members are more equal than others (with thanks to George Orwell).

[Jonny Utah]

formerbant, all nescac schools and probably 90% of all schools in the country lower the academic bar for athletes.

And again, I wouldnt look at a gpa too much.  Ill take an MIT guy with a 2.7 gpa over a Springfield phys ed 4.0 gpa anytime.  I might respect the teacher more but gpa doesnt mean anything. 

There was even a big uproar at Harvard a few years back.  Many teachers were giving 90% of their students As in all their classes.

[formerbant10]

Bomber, the phys ed program at Springfield is one of their toughest majors.  Supposedly anything outside of the sports realm there are the cupcake classes.  But I understand what you're saying.  I completely agree with the statement that 90% of the schools lower, but I wouldn't be surprised if every school has done it at some point or will in the future.  From what I have heard about Harvard, the toughest thing is getting in it's not too much work after that....but that's only going on what I've heard.  I was speaking from a personal standpoint, saying that those comments offend me, not saying that they are untrue however.  Even the prestigious Ivy League schools are allowed to admit athletes with supbar qualifications, as long as their recruiting class as a whole meets a certain standard.  So if they can do it, why can't everyone?

[Trin9-0]

Frank: I don't believe Trinity, Williams, Amherst or any other school in the NESCAC is going to leave the conference in the foreseeable future. Nor do I think the assumptions made on this board about the league kicking Trinity out, Trinity purposely breaking league rules in order to challenge the system or the notion that Trinity would ever drop its football program for a year or more in order to please the league carry any weight.

I think we are all making way too much out of Trinity's dominance in the past few seasons. Why wasn't any of this going on when Williams was winning 23 games in a row in the early '90s?

Eventually (probably within the next 2 or 3 years) Trinity College will increase the academic standards making it harder for the football program to get athletes into the school and we will have a return to more of a ballance of power at the top. This process will be excellerated if Priore ever does leave Trinity. In the mean time lets just enjoy watching one of the most efficiently run programs in the nation, play quality opponents who are all working very hard to knock off the champs.

[fpc85]

Well said.

[speedy]

speedy: Why don't Trinity, Amherst and Williams join to ignore the Rule of 75 and then look for NESCAC's reaction? Sounds as if NESCAC is an elite club where all the members are equal, but some members are more equal than others (with thanks to George Orwell).

I seriously doubt that any of the three institutions you mention have any interest whatsoever in destroying the NESCAC or withdrawing as would be the outcome of your suggestion. The NESCAC set up serves all 11 member schools across the board very well, with many NESCAC members using tough conference play as a spring board to advance deep into the NCCA play-offs in a wide range of sports.

These decisions governing the NESCAC rules are made by the presidents of the schools -- not by the athletic directors or the football coaches. The president of Trinity is not going to sacrifice the school's successful hockey program or its outstanding baseball program for a quizotic battle over how many players should be on the football roster.

There are zillions of NESCAC rules governing all aspects of sports operations at the 11 NESCAC scools. The 75-player limit on rosters is but one of many such restrictions. I suspect it is judged to be reasonable compromise by all NESCAC members as part of an overall sports packages, and I doubt that any institution has any interest in going to the mat over it since the rule has been in effect for some time now.

[Trin9-0]

Speedy: Though I agree that the rule will not be challenged any time soon by any NESCAC school, I still do not see the benefit of the rule itself to anyone involved. having a roster limit of 75 players doesn't help football programs like Hamilton, they can barely find 60 kids who want to play there. Nor does it help programs like Trinity, the kids they cut would not have contributed to the number of wins.

The only thing this rule does is hurt the kids who are being cut. It takes away their opportunity to compete, to get better and to learn valuable lessons while playing a game they love. It may sound hokey, but telling a walk-on at a division III school that he's not good enough to even practice with the team, in my opinion, just seems wrong to the very core.

[dirtybirds8-0]

Anyone have predictions on this weekends scores?  Who is gonna beat who? and will there be any upsets?

[speedy]

Speedy: Though I agree that the rule will not be challenged any time soon by any NESCAC school, I still do not see the benefit of the rule itself to anyone involved. having a roster limit of 75 players doesn't help football programs like Hamilton, they can barely find 60 kids who want to play there. Nor does it help programs like Trinity, the kids they cut would not have contributed to the number of wins.  . .

I don't think that the powers-that-be will agree with you. Since the rule has been in effect, the 3 schools that were the most at risk due to small squad size - Hamilton, Bates, and Bowdoin -- have all picked up in squad size.  The change may be as much (or more) a function of the new limits on the number of "tipped" football recruits (15) per school but the perception will be that the change in the rules accomplished its intended purpose -- to get those three programs off the endangered list.

[Jonny Utah]

trin8-0 there were a lot of people questioning williams through the 1990s, there was just no d3football.com to see it on.  Ill tell ya what though, I knew a lot of old williams players on those teams and frankly, they were geeks.  Whats even more funny, is that the ones I thought were the dumbest are doctors today.  I dont know how much williams lowered the academic bar, but what I do know is that amherst started to lower their bar significantly to compete with williams.  That did cause sort of a mild uproar.

And I dont know about the other schools in the nescac, but Bates, Bowdoin, Colby and Middlebury have been lowering the bar significantly to let in football and lacrosse players.

[speedy]

. . .
And I dont know about the other schools in the nescac, but Bates, Bowdoin, Colby and Middlebury have been lowering the bar significantly to let in football and lacrosse players.

All NESCAC schools lower their admission standards for athletes. The rules on "tipping" for athletes are officially enshrined in NESCAC policy. The football coach can "tip" as many as 15 football players each year. Tipping is a form of affirmative action for athletes. Up until a few years ago, there were no football specific limits on tipping. The 15-player limit on the number of football tips per year was put in place a few years ago due in large part to the recruiting excesses at Williams and Amherst in the 1990s.  The limit on squad size was a part of the same package and was intended to prevent the stockpiling of football players by certain institutions.

[Jonny Utah]

speedy, Ive talked about this tipping before.  And those 15 kids each school can let is still an "unofficial" number from what I understook, but it is the common number most nescac admission officers seem to use.  Im pretty sure at Middlebury a 1200 is the lowest they can go.  They can get a kid with an 1180 but just one.  Thats from a pretty reliable source that was up there two years ago, but you must be a current or former coach cause your right on the money.

and are you sure the tipping policy is official???  Id love to see the writing on that one, my understanding was that the 15 was an unofficial number between nescac admissions, anything in writing about a policy I would think would be illegal somehow.

[speedy]

speedy, Ive talked about this tipping before.  And those 15 kids each school can let is still an "unofficial" number from what I understook, but it is the common number most nescac admission officers seem to use.  Im pretty sure at Middlebury a 1200 is the lowest they can go.  They can get a kid with an 1180 but just one.  Thats from a pretty reliable source that was up there two years ago, but you must be a current or former coach cause your right on the money.

and are you sure the tipping policy is official???  Id love to see the writing on that one, my understanding was that the 15 was an unofficial number between nescac admissions, anything in writing about a policy I would think would be illegal somehow.

I have heard that the 15 cap for football players was made official within the past couple of years. The admissions directors for all the NESCAC schools meet at least twice a year -- my guess is that an effort is made to enforce these caps and other admissions standards for athletes through those meetings. I would love to be a fly on the wall at those meteings because I woul think that it woul be difficult to talk about compliance in any athlete specific way without violating  the student's privacy rights. . .

[Jonny Utah]

Yea, I think its more of an understanding than a written rule.  And the tough part for these coaches is that the "15" must be early decisions.  getting those high school seniors to be one of the fifteen during the college football season is a tough thing to do.

[frank uible]

They are their bars.  Let any of them lower or raise their own bar as much as it likes.