FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[quicksilver]

Here's Middlebury's announcement as to its "initial plans" for the fall, which include bringing most students back to campus. Middlebury is very vague about whether there will be sports, punting that issue down the road and not making any real commitment to offer sports in the fall semester other than the "hope to provide meaningful experiences for our student athletes." Here is the key quote:

This will not be a traditional fall on campus in any respect, including for those activities. In athletics, we are working with our NESCAC peers to develop guidelines for the return to athletics and hope to provide meaningful experiences for our student-athletes. We expect to have more details in the weeks ahead and will share information as it becomes available. We will communicate with you about club and intramural sports once we know more.

[ColbyFootball]

Hi, folks -- so, here's the deal.

When I take a post down, I generally take down any post that also quotes it. I think folks can understand why. The original post was the one that was taken down, and that brought down any posts which cited it.

ColbyFootball -- on a brand-new virus, it's kind of disingenuous to cite a statement from four months ago, right? The science on this was developing then and it is developing now. Let's stick to the realm of current thinking when making arguments.

Was I not responding to a comment that made reference to posters making light of Covid-19 in early March. So I quite appropriately made the very point you're making now. That the science for want of a better term is different now than it was back then. And with respect to the current thinking, the college age and younger population is at very low risk. So why are the lives of these kids being damaged forever? Take precautions, but do not overreact and shut everything down. And for the record, I do not have a kid in college, or entering college in 2020. So it does not effect my family personally. I feel for the other families.

[lumbercat]

Look, unfortunately the lack of a football season is directly related to the coronavirus, so the intertwined discussion is inevitable.  I can't recall, Colby, if you were one of the people freaking out back in March, here on this very board, when schools were shutting down, claiming that this virus was all a big nothingburger and look how few deaths there have been and how dare they send students home!  I'm guessing you were.  Sadly, Nescac schools were proven right then.  It's impossible to say what the right course of action is, but one thing schools should certainly not do is listen to the same people who sought back in March to minimize the danger posed by this virus and compare it to the seasonal flu.

NESCAC1-

Colby Football and I have disagreed in the past which I guess is an expected result when you combine Bobcats and Mules. I don't agree totally with his current position on this issue but let's be fair to the guy. You are ripping him for being one of the extremists who was "freaking out (you think) on the NESCAC decision to shut things down in March".

So here we stand 3 months later and you are right, the NESCAC made the right call. But ripping the guy now for that opinion 3 months ago is an easy call to make. Colby Football's reference to the quote from Dr Fauchi on 2/29 regarding the virus is representative of the level of knowledge of a very fluid situation that existed at that point in time. That quote was based on current information from the leading national expert at that time. Fauchi said Americans need not change their daily routines.

Lets not slam the guy now for "freaking out". His opinion at that point was based on statements made by Fauchi who was recognized as the leading scientist and national authority at that time- many shared this opinion.

[nescac1]

Colby Football, and others, can be forgiven for being wrong before.  What they can't be forgiven for is ignoring 120,000 dead Americans, and rising (still) quite rapidly, in their analysis of this situation. Which he continues to do.  He makes the same argument over and over again. The argument is a silly one.  I've explained why.  He's ignored the explanation, just repeating the same argument that NOW we certainly know to be flawed, ad infinitum.  If there is a mass outbreak on campus among young, healthy people - who by the way do quite regularly suffer debilitating long term health consequences from this illness that are in no way the same as the flu, you don't have to look very far to find plentiful examples, but even putting that aside - there will be dramatic consequences, up to and including death, for the older people in the community who live and work in proximity to those students.  That is a severe human cost that must at least factor into (in a very significant way) colleges' decision-making process.  It's something that for whatever reason Colby Hoops chooses to ignore. 

I've never said that there aren't significant costs to students missing a semester of athletics, or far worse, school entirely.  But as this situation evolves in a very bad way within US borders (and no, it's not political, it's factual - cases are going up in many cases dramatically in half the country right now as they are diminished dramatically elsewhere), colleges have a moral responsibility to take into account that a very plausible massive spread among students will almost surely lead to a massive spread among the many people who cook for, clean up after, teach, and care for those students.  Not to mention the severe impact on very scarce medical resources in places, like say Williamstown, which lacks even a hospital, should students be filling up very scarce regional ICU beds.  So I guess I'm just a bit flummoxed that, despite treating this not nearly seriously enough early in the Spring, those same people haven't at least learned enough, still, to have any consideration for NON students when blithely insisting that the only acceptable option for Nescac schools is a resumption of full academic and extracurricular life.  I've never said I have the right answer regarding how to balance the competing very real and very serious costs at stake here.  I just want people to acknowledge those costs honestly and be understanding of, frankly, the impossible position college administrators are in right now. 

[quicksilver]

     . . .
Was I nit responding to a comment that made reference to posters making light of Covid-19 in early March. So I quite appropriately made the very point you're making now. That the science for want of a better term is different now than it was back then. And with respect to the current thinking, the college age and younger population is at very low risk. So why are the lives of these kids being damaged forever? Take precautions, but do not overreact and shut everything down. And for the record, I do not have a kid in college, or entering college in 2020. So it does not effect my family personally. I feel for the other families.

The problem is that the professors, administrators, coaches, groundskeepers, cooks, cleaners, et on NESCAC campuses tend to be older and often at risk . . And while you are correct that young people generally seem to be at low risk, they also can be asymptomatic carriers who can easily transmit the virus to vulnerable populations which actually abound on the typical NESCAC campus . .  I am glad not to be a NESCAC administrator charged with making these difficult decisions in a world filled with unknowns as to what will happen when sports resumes, people congregate etc . . .The early results from the states that re-opened before getting things under control are not looking good so far. 

[ColbyFootball]

Colby Football, and others, can be forgiven for being wrong before.  What they can't be forgiven for is ignoring 120,000 dead Americans, and rising (still) quite rapidly, in their analysis of this situation. Which he continues to do.  He makes the same argument over and over again. The argument is a silly one.  I've explained why.  He's ignored the explanation, just repeating the same argument that NOW we certainly know to be flawed, ad infinitum.  If there is a mass outbreak on campus among young, healthy people - who by the way do quite regularly suffer debilitating long term health consequences from this illness that are in no way the same as the flu, you don't have to look very far to find plentiful examples, but even putting that aside - there will be dramatic consequences, up to and including death, for the older people in the community who live and work in proximity to those students.  That is a severe human cost that must at least factor into (in a very significant way) colleges' decision-making process.  It's something that for whatever reason Colby Hoops chooses to ignore. 

I've never said that there aren't significant costs to students missing a semester of athletics, or far worse, school entirely.  But as this situation evolves in a very bad way within US borders (and no, it's not political, it's factual - cases are going up in many cases dramatically in half the country right now as they are diminished dramatically elsewhere), colleges have a moral responsibility to take into account that a very plausible massive spread among students will almost surely lead to a massive spread among the many people who cook for, clean up after, teach, and care for those students.  Not to mention the severe impact on very scarce medical resources in places, like say Williamstown, which lacks even a hospital, should students be filling up very scarce regional ICU beds.  So I guess I'm just a bit flummoxed that, despite treating this not nearly seriously enough early in the Spring, those same people haven't at least learned enough, still, to have any consideration for NON students when blithely insisting that the only acceptable option for Nescac schools is a resumption of full academic and extracurricular life.  I've never said I have the right answer regarding how to balance the competing very real and very serious costs at stake here.  I just want people to acknowledge those costs honestly and be understanding of, frankly, the impossible position college administrators are in right now.

Since when do I or anyone need to be "forgiven" by you. Who made you an authority on this subject? I've likely done far more research on this virus than you realize. The facts remain that while overall positive cases are increasing, the death rate is at the lowest point since March. Another fact, the young people that are being adversely impacted and robbed of their full educational experience are the lowest at risk. So, I wish some people would pay attention to all facts. Again, let's take this virus seriously, take prudent measured precautions, but not be hysterical in our response. And above all let's not be guided by politics.

[nescac1]

Despite your "extensive research" you appear to be misinformed on asymptomatic spread.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomatic-spread-covid-19/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/health/asymptomatic-presymptomatic-coronavirus-spread-explained-wellness/index.html

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/asymptomatic-transmission-of-coronavirus-may-be-worse-than-sars-or-influenza-2020-06-12

If there was little to no risk of such spread, cases would not be skyrocketing right now in AZ, TX, FL and elsewhere.  Deaths by the way are a lagging indicator, so there is no way to know what the impact of this ongoing spike will be in terms of mortality rates in the affected regions for another month or so.

If college students are infected en masse, it is simply impossible to protect adults who by necessity will come in close contact with them.  Maybe read up on the medical professionals who have succumbed to this disease notwithstanding all sorts of precautions unavailable to the general public. You've chosen to ignore the very real and unavoidable threat to college staff and community members presented by full reopening.  But that doesn't mean colleges should stop caring and focus only on their students.  To do so would be an unbelievably selfish act.  Non-students' welfare MUST be part of the cost-benefit analysis when colleges do reach a decision.  If things look dramatically better in terms of the disease trajectory in one month, that's one thing.  But right now, we are doing very poorly. 

(Edit: much of this post is responsive to a since-deleted post ...)

[jmcozenlaw]

Colby Football, and others, can be forgiven for being wrong before.  What they can't be forgiven for is ignoring 120,000 dead Americans, and rising (still) quite rapidly, in their analysis of this situation. Which he continues to do.  He makes the same argument over and over again. The argument is a silly one.  I've explained why.  He's ignored the explanation, just repeating the same argument that NOW we certainly know to be flawed, ad infinitum.  If there is a mass outbreak on campus among young, healthy people - who by the way do quite regularly suffer debilitating long term health consequences from this illness that are in no way the same as the flu, you don't have to look very far to find plentiful examples, but even putting that aside - there will be dramatic consequences, up to and including death, for the older people in the community who live and work in proximity to those students.  That is a severe human cost that must at least factor into (in a very significant way) colleges' decision-making process.  It's something that for whatever reason Colby Hoops chooses to ignore. 

I've never said that there aren't significant costs to students missing a semester of athletics, or far worse, school entirely.  But as this situation evolves in a very bad way within US borders (and no, it's not political, it's factual - cases are going up in many cases dramatically in half the country right now as they are diminished dramatically elsewhere), colleges have a moral responsibility to take into account that a very plausible massive spread among students will almost surely lead to a massive spread among the many people who cook for, clean up after, teach, and care for those students.  Not to mention the severe impact on very scarce medical resources in places, like say Williamstown, which lacks even a hospital, should students be filling up very scarce regional ICU beds.  So I guess I'm just a bit flummoxed that, despite treating this not nearly seriously enough early in the Spring, those same people haven't at least learned enough, still, to have any consideration for NON students when blithely insisting that the only acceptable option for Nescac schools is a resumption of full academic and extracurricular life.  I've never said I have the right answer regarding how to balance the competing very real and very serious costs at stake here.  I just want people to acknowledge those costs honestly and be understanding of, frankly, the impossible position college administrators are in right now.

Since when do I or anyone need to be "forgiven" by you. Who made you an authority on this subject? I've likely done far more research on this virus than you realize. The facts remain that while overall positive cases are increasing, the death rate is at the lowest point since March. Another fact, the young people that are being adversely impacted and robbed of their full educational experience are the lowest at risk. So, I wish some people would pay attention to all facts. Again, let's take this virus seriously, take prudent measured precautions, but not be hysterical in our response. And above all let's not be guided by politics.

"Forgiven" by nescac1? Who does he think he is, God? (although that would be impossible as he doesn't believe in God................as that seems to be anti-NESCAC in most, but not all, circles)

[Hawk196]

What they can't be forgiven for is ignoring 120,000 dead Americans, and rising (still) quite rapidly, in their analysis of this situation.

Let's not point fingers at each other. Remember those 120K deaths can only be blamed on one thing the CHINESE Gov't. Misleading the world on severity(oh, its like swine flu), having 70K ex-pats come back for Chinese new year, only to have them go back to their home countries and spread the virus. Call it what it is the "Wuhan virus". Every year its something new SARS, Swine flu, etc......THEY need to be held accountable!

[jamtod]

What they can't be forgiven for is ignoring 120,000 dead Americans, and rising (still) quite rapidly, in their analysis of this situation.

Let's not point fingers at each other. Remember those 120K deaths can only be blamed on one thing the CHINESE Gov't. Misleading the world on severity(oh, its like swine flu), having 70K ex-pats come back for Chinese new year, only to have them go back to their home countries and spread the virus. Call it what it is the "Wuhan virus". Every year its something new SARS, Swine flu, etc......THEY need to be held accountable!

Why blame the Chinese when we can blame 5G?

[JEFFFAN]

I am as interested in politics and the virus as the next guy, but at least up until now I came to our silly little NESCAC birds - silly in a good way - to talk about sports.   Any way we can stick to sports, acknowledging that there are not too many being played right now?

[Oline89]

Despite your "extensive research" you appear to be misinformed on asymptomatic spread.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomatic-spread-covid-19/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/health/asymptomatic-presymptomatic-coronavirus-spread-explained-wellness/index.html

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/asymptomatic-transmission-of-coronavirus-may-be-worse-than-sars-or-influenza-2020-06-12

If there was little to no risk of such spread, cases would not be skyrocketing right now in AZ, TX, FL and elsewhere.  Deaths by the way are a lagging indicator, so there is no way to know what the impact of this ongoing spike will be in terms of mortality rates in the affected regions for another month or so.

If college students are infected en masse, it is simply impossible to protect adults who by necessity will come in close contact with them.  Maybe read up on the medical professionals who have succumbed to this disease notwithstanding all sorts of precautions unavailable to the general public. You've chosen to ignore the very real and unavoidable threat to college staff and community members presented by full reopening.  But that doesn't mean colleges should stop caring and focus only on their students.  To do so would be an unbelievably selfish act.  Non-students' welfare MUST be part of the cost-benefit analysis when colleges do reach a decision.  If things look dramatically better in terms of the disease trajectory in one month, that's one thing.  But right now, we are doing very poorly. 

(Edit: much of this post is responsive to a since-deleted post ...)

I am going to jump in here, simply because I can't hold back (I will probably regret this later).  Since we all agree that the least "at risk" group is the healthy college students, the main argument for not returning the students and athletes back to "normalcy", is the worry about transmission to non-student employees, coaches, professors, etc. Have you stopped to consider the personal situation of this group?  Perhaps the idea of being furloughed for another 6 months is not something this group could tolerate financially, mentally, or socially.  Certainly there is a physical risk that each of these employees will face, but given proper distancing, HAND WASHING, hygiene, the risks can be significantly mitigated.   Perhaps the overall damage caused to the students, employees, faculty and coaches by not working outweighs the manageable risk of catching the virus.

[jamtod]

Despite your "extensive research" you appear to be misinformed on asymptomatic spread.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomatic-spread-covid-19/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/health/asymptomatic-presymptomatic-coronavirus-spread-explained-wellness/index.html

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/asymptomatic-transmission-of-coronavirus-may-be-worse-than-sars-or-influenza-2020-06-12

If there was little to no risk of such spread, cases would not be skyrocketing right now in AZ, TX, FL and elsewhere.  Deaths by the way are a lagging indicator, so there is no way to know what the impact of this ongoing spike will be in terms of mortality rates in the affected regions for another month or so.

If college students are infected en masse, it is simply impossible to protect adults who by necessity will come in close contact with them.  Maybe read up on the medical professionals who have succumbed to this disease notwithstanding all sorts of precautions unavailable to the general public. You've chosen to ignore the very real and unavoidable threat to college staff and community members presented by full reopening.  But that doesn't mean colleges should stop caring and focus only on their students.  To do so would be an unbelievably selfish act.  Non-students' welfare MUST be part of the cost-benefit analysis when colleges do reach a decision.  If things look dramatically better in terms of the disease trajectory in one month, that's one thing.  But right now, we are doing very poorly. 

(Edit: much of this post is responsive to a since-deleted post ...)

I am going to jump in here, simply because I can't hold back (I will probably regret this later).  Since we all agree that the least "at risk" group is the healthy college students, the main argument for not returning the students and athletes back to "normalcy", is the worry about transmission to non-student employees, coaches, professors, etc. Have you stopped to consider the personal situation of this group?  Perhaps the idea of being furloughed for another 6 months is not something this group could tolerate financially, mentally, or socially.  Certainly there is a physical risk that each of these employees will face, but given proper distancing, HAND WASHING, hygiene, the risks can be significantly mitigated.   Perhaps the overall damage caused to the students, employees, faculty and coaches by not working outweighs the manageable risk of catching the virus.

I think that cost-benefit is certainly worth considering, but in order to have a meaningful conversation about that, there needs to be some fundamental agreement on the facts and nature of COVID and not an attempt to downplay (or over emphasize) the risks.

[nescac1]

Christ people, give it up.  (At least Colby Football realized enough to delete his incorrect post about transmission after bragging about all of his expertise).

First, regarding the "forgiven" part, several of you have divorced entirely from context of the discussion that preceded it, if you had bothered to follow the discussion here, that was a response to Lumbercat, who was in turn responding to my point that PERHAPS we should not be following the sage advice of all the people who back in March were absolutely APOPLECTIC that NESCAC sports were being cancelled.  Lumbercat made the very fair counterpoint that we knew a lot less back then than we do now.  So my point in response is, sure, while it's maybe "forgivable" that they were wrong back when we knew so little, to not in any way change their perspective, to STILL treat this disease as the equivalent of the common flu when SO many have died and so many MORE are still suffering greatly from the aftermath of this disease, is highly problematic. 

Second, China is not to blame for OUR government's response to the coronavirus, which by every statistical metric available is one of the three worst in the world (the other two being Brazil, which is just a ****show in every way imaginable, and Sweden, which at least had a strategy in mind, albeit one that didn't turn out quite so well).  There are barely any new infections in Western Europe right now (10 percent of the U.S. level, and dropping, while ours are rising), and that dramatic differential has nothing to do with China.  Sorry to be "political" but NESCAC schools are trying to figure out what the safest, best strategy is for moving forward, and unfortunately, that can't be divorced from the reality we are facing HERE in the United States, which in turn is a reflection of our leadership.  The coronavirus has taken a very different path in the U.S. than in, for example, western Europe, and NESCAC Presidents have to be cognizant of political reality, including a government that isn't taking the disease terribly seriously right now, when setting its own policies and projecting very uncertain risk levels far into the future.  I feel for them, as again, they are faced with no good options. 

Third, Oline89 does raise a good point about the loss of income for affected employees.  My solution to that is a pretty simple one: if NESCAC schools determine that it is not safe for those employees to interact with students, simply pay them their salaries and benefits until it is.  That will mitigate a huge amount of the damage caused by a limited on-campus student population.  Schools can also take all sorts other proactive measures to help their communities, economically, which is far easier than managing an incredibly contagious, highly dangerous disease.  These 11 schools collectively have more than 10 billion dollars in endowments, and a massive pool of incredibly wealth alumni to draw from.  They have the rare luxury of being able to do that.  But making people, especially working-class people, choose between economic survival and, potentially depending on how things evolve over the next few months, a high likelihood of catching the coronovirus is very cruel unless it's absolutely necessary.  Which, at least given NESCAC resources, it is not.  Things like hand-washing and mask wearing, while certainly helpful at the margins, just aren't (I expect, I hope I'm wrong, perhaps there can be more creative solutions) going to cut it for people interacting intensely INDOORS with dormitory-style living and dining on a daily basis.  Cleaning college student bathrooms and serving multiple meals a day to several thousand young people all living together and spreading the virus amongst themselves is just very high-risk activity, as we've seen from the impact of this disease on medical professionals taking all the precautions, and more, being discussed here.

As for discussing this in lieu of sports, well, no one is forcing anyone to read.  I've contributed as much football-related content to this board over the years as anyone.  I'd sure rather be discussing football.  I miss sports in a massive way.  But in case folks haven't noticed, there are currently no sports of ANY kind to discuss, and it's unlikely there will be any for quite some time, certainly at the NESCAC level.  So it's not like these discussions are crowding out talking about a non-existent football season.  Alas. 

[quicksilver]

Several of the NESCAcs have announced a policy of no furloughs, including Bowdoin even with the small number of students scheduled to be on campus, so don't think that keeping college employees working and paid is a big part of the equation for the push to re-open although it may be a factor for the more lightly endowed NESCACs . . . .