FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Jonny Utah]

"The Conference is based on mutual trust, and all members are committed to the highest ethical standards in our relationships with each other. It encourages its members to compete with one another and is committed to promoting equitable competition among us. The Conference is committed to establishing common boundaries to keep athletics strong but in proportion to the overall academic mission of the member institutions."

Frank, thats from paragraph 3 of the nescac mission statement.  One of the best things about the nescac is good competition.  If they do what you say, it would be ruined.

[speedy]

Yea, I think its more of an understanding than a written rule.  And the tough part for these coaches is that the "15" must be early decisions.  . . 

The coaches have generally figured out how to work within the rules. There are all kinds of tricks - like converting a regular application into a second round early decision application. This can be one up until some time in Feb.  And then there is my favorite -- (1) the coach submits a list of the athletes that he is interested in to the admissions department; (2) the admission department tells the coach which of his targets is likely to be admitted through the regular admissions process without the assistance of a tip; (3) the coach then knows exactly which candidates on whom he must burn a tip.

[Jonny Utah]

speedy theres a name that Ivy league teams use for the guys that can get into the schools with out help from the football formula..............dam its on the tip of my tongue I cant think of it though.

But I mean the tough part is that many high school players look at several nescac schools.  They can only apply early to the one school....but can wait for financial aid packages before they decide....but thats a whole other story.

[frank uible]

boston: NESCAC'S mission statement like most mission statements is a political document and consequently eyewash. NESCAC's ruination would be a good thing. Small colleges and their football teams prospered in the Northeast long before NESCAC came into existence and will continue to prosper long after NESCAC fades from the scene. It is time to break up NESCAC for football purposes. It is doing educational damage.

[Jonny Utah]

frank are you the type of guy that thinks you should be able to major in football too?

[frank uible]

bomber: Whether a college offers a "football" major is a policy decision for each individual college to determine for itself but not to impose on others. A lot of colleges and universities offer such a thing and seem to be happy about it.

[saul]

trinity would have beat the pats on sunday. pats goin down this year.



other schools take shots at trin cuz they have a lower admiss bar than the other schools and they take advantage of it. if you're trin prez you need $$  and some believe the shortest route to alums' pockets is thru the football field. there's nothing illegal about this and they shouldn't be asked to leave nescafe for it. trin has low endowment... wicked low.
   
bates, bowdoin, etc want good football programs too ---and ^ knows they've suffered --- they won't lower their standards across the board to do it. good for them and their precious reps, but don't complain. trin may  trail the rest in classroom, but come sat they win and alums love it, pay for it. everybody's happy there.

sure trinity's admissions policies are like its 12th man on the field, their extra down. don't blame the kids for what admiss lets in. the kids hold their end of the deal up on the field. look at the record.

other schools play under different standards so I see why they get hot cuz its not an even game being played off the field. trin can't compete w/ williams and amherst in the classroom cuz they're not even in the same league. amhert and williams kids apply to trin as a safety, if at all. anybody at trin couldn't get into amherst. if you're droppin 160k you're going to the best school you can hack. makes sense but don'y lord it over trin. amherst,etc  got the rankings and reps. so what. trin knows it and does what it can-- no shame there.  plus it makes for great football in the foilage? if you're worked up about trin, just try to celebrate their football prowess. let them entertain you. be cool. some say only the court's fool serves to entertain its superiors, but at least he's laughing,
right?

trin should never leave nescafe and I don't think they ever will-- it's a big part of their identity and too marketable to their target pool. prolly drop football before they step out the door. wheaton, clark brandeis etc, etc just waiting for the invite but it's not hap'n cause trin's leaving.

btw, only reason no football goes to ncaa is too many kids leaving campus for playoffs at wrong time of year-- near exams. too much chaos. also, prez know they can't compete nationally cuz it means lowering admiss too far. in other sports they can compno prez wants to stick his neck out to end up w/ a u of miami-esque program showing him the door. not like basketball w/ only a fraction of the kids needing tips plus no exams in march, bro. good luck to all ballers and excuse my e.e. state o' mind.

[formerd3db]

frank:
To digress for a moment if I may.  Did you see where San Diego (DIAA non-scholarship as you know) beat Yale (Ivy, DIAA non-scholarship) this past weekend 17-14?  In relation to the past discussions that you, I, and others have had in general on this, it was a good win for the Pioneer League.  Seems like Harbaugh has them on the right track.  Just goes to show that sometimes, the DIAA non-scholarship programs when they have a "great" year can compeat with the other top DIAA non-scholarship programs and possibly some of the lower tier scholarship ones.   Occasionally, the Ivy's can do the same against better foe.  Anyway, it was good for SD this weekend.

[Jonny Utah]

bomber: Whether a college offers a "football" major is a policy decision for each individual college to determine for itself but not to impose on others. A lot of colleges and universities offer such a thing and seem to be happy about it.

Frank, what schools have football as a major??

[frank uible]

boston: 117 colleges and universities play DIA football. That is majoring in football.

[Trin9-0]

Frank: For the last time... the NESCAC isn't going anywhere and neither is Trinity. As passionate as the Trinity, Williams, and Amherst FOOTBALL alumni may be about the teams at their alma matter... the vast majority of alumni at NESCAC schools don't really care what kind of record the football team has.

As a matter of fact at Trinity (and most of, if not ALL other NESCAC schools) the importance of football to the student body and alumni ranks somewhere between the renovation of the Chapel and the annual robot building contest. You have to remember that NESCAC schools are stuborn, elitist and to be honest probably prefer the seclusion they get from the rest of the NCAA in regards to football (collegiate sports biggest "old-boy network").

Trinity has always been at the lower end of the NESCAC in terms of academic standards for admission. There is no shame in that by anyone at Trinity, becasue it is still one of the best small colleges in the world and very selective. Trinity, Amherst and Williams with a few exceptions have always been the dominant football teams in the conference for a few simple reasons: While the higher standard of admissions at Williams and Amherst hinder their recuriting, that reputation also increases a prospective student-athletes desire to go to school there.

Trinity's advantage is that it offers student-athletes with a slightly lesser academic record the opportunity to attend a very selective small liberal arts college with great alumni connections. And the common bond between all three of the NESCAC football powers is tradition. Everyone wants to be part of a winner, and Trinity, Williams and Amherst all have a winning tradition.

The bottom line is that the NESCAC may appear flawed in many of its practices to the outside world.  However, the administration and alumni of these schools do not see it as flawed.  At least in terms of football, NESCAC decision makers prefer their secluded and elitist mentality. It proves to no one in particular that they refuse to lower themselves to among the ranks of the "commoners" in the most base and barbaric sport of all.

It is not just an bias against schools with lesser academic reputations, it is a football bias.



Why don't you hear anyone complaining about Trinity winning 7 consecutive squash national championships?

[saul]

   i think nobody else in nescafe worries too much about trinity winning at squash because squash is a pretty obscure sport w/ a low roster number. how many people show up for some barnburning bates-trinity sqaush match on a wed. in february? trin squash only plays a few nescafe schools anyway-- they got bigger fish to fry-- and crush ivies on a regular basis so nescafe schools may actually like the fact that trin represents to the max outside of their league while only inflicting limited damage to nescafe egos via direct competition. anyway, it's not footie, and that's the important thing, dude.

my friend at trin says that all the squash starters are solid students and 2 of the captains are all nescac academics and another just regular guy is too. small roster, captains on all-nescac acad and the fact that its not a helmut sport keep the critics away. helmut sports have always been a lightening rod especially since that bowen book.


at football games there's lots of fans. go to a trinity football  game and after a while the word get around about so and so's grades/sats and how in the world did that kid ever get in anywhere when he graduated in the midd of his class or whatever. other schools do it but on the q and not a lot cuz they have limited tips. even tips they get often need a pg yr at a decent prep school as evidence they can do the work before they get in. a lot of kids who get told that at amherst or the ivies walk over to trin to take their shot.  why spend the extra $$$, no guarantees from admiss, just an extra long look. some kids at trin can tell you that.  the other nescafe schools are better than trin and don't have the same success as trin in football, just treading water some of them. they can't compete w/ trins system so they complain.

btw, each school determines the number of tips it allows and it often changes from year to year based on the strength of that years ' applicants. a tip is no guarantee either cuz admissions can accept or suggest prep school.  coach recs a kid and admiss has to say "we'll take a chance on this kid ' based on the applicant pool that we've seen so far this year.

so also i would guess --tell me if i'm wrong--that some of the worst critics of trin football are assistant coaches or head coaches at other nescac schools who get intimidated, angry or like envious of trin's triumphs and start leaking info or rumors about guys that trin let in and how it's not fair. some of its true, some's twisted & some are lies. it hurts trin but it also hurts the general rep of footie in  nescafe's---and it kills nescafe's chances of ever going national. trins problem is that footie's the 800 lb elephant that everyone in the room can see w/ all the attendant negatives but distribute that sucess over a couple other, lower profile teams and nobody's really the wiser. footie has the bad rep. hockey and lax do to but those are prep school sports and nescafe loves all things prep. also they have small rosters. football plays in the fall when other sports don't really divert attention away from them.

one option for trin is a limited nescafe pull-out: for football only, but keep all other sports nescafe. that's a big risk though, like if the coach leaves them and the program can't maintain. coach is too young and can make more $$ elsewhere; could leave trin high and dry if they leave the league. trin should just stay nescafe because programs rise and fall but necafe is a badge of honor.

[dirtybirds8-0]

Trin8-0:  I actually have heard several complaints from Harvard, Yale, and Princeton squash programs about the academic standards for Trinity athletics....However, someone is going to complain and find a reason for their inabiltity to compete with another institution.  This whole conversation is based around sore LOSERS.  When did we loose the ability to look at a team and say, "wow, they are great athletes who work hard to achieve the success they have had?"
       Does anyone really think that a students SAT scores determine how good of an athlete an individual is? or how good they will become over their 4 years in college?  Also, does an SAT score really determine the level of success that a student will have in the classroom? (although it can be an indication, hard work and persistence does count)  Speaking for myself, I was a good student at a very difficult highschool but did not perform well on my SAT's.  Trinity took a shot at me for athletics and my work in the classroom.....they took a chance and got alot in return.  Not only did I have a great career in athletics, but I also did very well in the classroom.  
       I appreciate everything Trinity has done for me, and to be honest, I think some of the other NESCAC schools pass on some great athletes, students, and people, strictly based on SAT scores......sorry guys, but they do it to themselves.



This weekend:

Trin @ Bates  45-6 (Trin)  ---  Dominating performance by Bants ground game  
                                             and defense

Midd @Bowdoin 14-21 (Bow)---- Bowdoin shows improvement @ home, ground
                                                  game slays panthers
 
Williams @ Colby 24-17 (Will)----- Williams sets up a great one for week 2 with
                                                    air attack confusing the Mules

Tufts @ Weslyan 21-10 (Jumbos)---- Jumbos push a weaker than average
                                                         Cardinal team into the losers bracket

Amherst @ Hamiltoes 31- 10 (Herst)---- No suprise, but Holstag shows some
                                                              skills

[camper]

reverse that colby score and you may be on to something...

[speedy]

   i think nobody else in nescafe worries too much about trinity winning at squash because squash is a pretty obscure sport w/ a low roster number. how many people show up for some barnburning bates-trinity sqaush match on a wed. in february? trin squash only plays a few nescafe schools anyway-- they got bigger fish to fry--

Squash is not a NESCAC sport so there would be less concern/interest on the part of other NESCAC schools with regard to the Trinity squash program.