FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[The Mole]

1. Devanney--Trinity has more talent than the rest of the league but Lord Jeff and staff do a great job.
2. Mills has done a good job long term, deserves this spot, Ritter would be here if he had not retired
3. Dicenzo--Did Wesleyan and Dicenzo have THAT much more talent? I would say no, offline conversation required for this one...
4. Civetti record ain't that great but much better since the bad start in first 3 years (similar to Dicenzo's)
5. Raymond--should a Williams team that just went 9-0 ever go 3-6 in the next year?
6. Hammer--has scratched out some decent wins, can he ever get the support to move up higher?
7. Cosgrove at 4 is ludicrous. What has he done? $200mm facility and lots of admissions support, a winning record is mandatory
8. Murray may be destined for this spot, not sure you can win there consistently
Coyne--grade is incomplete until he can show a few years progress
Mandigo also incomplete but hard to believe he won't continue the success

[The Mole]

DiCenzo record since he took over in 2015: 42-19, Results matter, I love facts and actual data. Tied for 2nd best record with an excellent coach that just retired. Yet "ranked" below coaches he has beaten head to head. Enjoy.

Head to Head since then and (overall) since 2015, or since they took over:

Devanney: 1-6 (53-8)
Ritter 2-4 (42-19)
Mills 3-4 (38-23)
Civetti 4-2 (39-22)
Raymond 5-1 (30-23)
Hammer 2-1 (4-23)
Cosgrove 4-0 (13-23)
Murray 6-1 (19-42)
Coyne 1-0 (3-6)

[lumbercat]

Good points Mole.

I think the evaluation of any coach should be based on his ability to get the most out of his players. Posters have weighed in with their rankings of all the coaches. The results are in.

I would rank Devanney lower because I think some other NESCAC coaches would achieve the same or better results than Lord Jeff in that environment. EJ Mills and maybe Ritter if at Trinity would have a better record than Devanney. Mills beat Devanney in more than a couple big games with fine teams but inferior in talent to Trinity. I'd have to rank Mills over Devanney soundly in any evaluation.

Just to double check the ratings maybe posters might be willing to weigh in separately with their evaluations of the pure talent level on NESCAC rosters over the last 5-10 years.

[The Mole]

Lumber, I am simply sharing facts, not emotion or opinion. Ultimately, the primary measurement of a coach/staff is wins and losses. Period. Who is doing more with less or out punching their weight class is a whole different story. The playing field in NESCAC is not level with facilities, admissions standards, geography, et alia.
I politely disagree with your comment that Trinity is the second best job in all of D3. Not a great location, not great facilities, and on a national basis not easy to get athletes into the school and no playoffs. Still a great situation and the consistency of that staff has made a huge difference. Could other coaches win there? Of course. But the sheer results cannot be ignored or downplayed. If it was such an easy place to win, shouldn't they dominate all the NESCAC sports?
Access to talent is key and some schools have an advantage. Recruiting that talent and identifying it is even more important. Lastly, the development of those players is also critical. You can certainly create rankings for all of those factors, but when the buck stops your record is your resume.

[lumbercat]

Good points Mole but let me clarify my thoughts on the Trinity program.

When I say it's the second best job in D3 Im not considering the area or the facilities or the quality of life in Hartford (though as we know there are beautiful suburbs and very nice areas a stones throw from Hartford). In terms of Football facilities I might also take issue. I see the best Football home stadium in the league. Not sure about other sports.

My comment is based solely on a culture and environment which is the most conducive to building a winning tradition and maintaining it year after year. The institution is totally committed to winning which gives the Bantams significant competitive advantages within the conservative NESCAC. Virtually every other NESCAC school would kill for the level of support they have enjoyed for years at Trinity. The support from administration, admissions, faculty and Alums is unparrelled in the league.

I'm talking Football only here.

And politely, I'd disagree with any statement which implies that it is a tough place to recruit. One of the major positives for the HC is the broadest admissions guidelines in the NESCAC. They do extremely well in the northeast so they have a little less geographic diversity but at the end of the day evaluation of recruiting results is not based on geographic spread but on the quality of your roster and the Bants have no worries there.

The lack of playoff participation is a negative for the entire conference.

BTW-- from trusted sources there is currently a concerted movement within NESCAC football programs with anticipated administrative support for inclusion in the D3 Football playoffs and some type of approved spring Football regimen. The basis for the move is based on a platform of EQUITY. Why do all other programs participate in playoffs but not Football. It's a fairness-equality play.  This has been voiced on this board before but those involved feel it really has some legs in the present environment.

We will see what the Presidents have to say, but the equity platform is said to have legs. I was a skeptic on the 9th game but very happy to have been wrong on that one. I've been a skeptic on the playoff thing also but after hearing what is happening on this front who knows? Fairness, equality with other programs seems to make sense.

[NESCACPeople]

Mole and Lumbercat great points. Mole thanks for the data. We our all entitled to our opinions and we respect the fact that wins and losses do at the end of day speak loudest. I believe this point has been brought up before but what if you switch the coaches to different teams would they have the same success or failures? Devanney at Bowdoin or Mills at Bates or Murrray at Wesleyan or Hammer at Trinity. No one can say for sure what would happen but we think Devanney could move the needle at Bowdoin. Should Kelton be a top coach for winning a championship with a team he inherited or should he be judged for how his tenure ended? What if we pose it this way if Mole and Lumber took over there respective teams next year is Mole the better coach for leading Wesleyan to their usual 6-3 record or Lumber for finding a way to win 3 games for a 3-6 record.

Mole to your point about Raymond, we disagree with your assertion. Why wouldn't a Williams team that lost a very productive senior class take a step back (which was made worse by having no QB.) Why did a Wesleyan team that went 6-3 the year before, brought back 17+ starters and according to their superfans it was the year of the cardinal go 6-3 again with a lost to Bowdoin?

Despite what you think about Devanney and Trinity they have been a consistent championship program over the last decade and no one else can even come close to saying that with Amherst's fall from grace the last couple years.

There a lot of bad coaches who's players make them look good at every level of college football. We just feel there are some guys who are better at developing and getting the most out of their players, is that not what coaching is really about?


Here's win loss vs teams that finished above .500 the last 5 years.
Devanney 13-6 .684%
Raymond 7-13 .350%
Mills 9-12 .428%
Civetti 6-15 .286%
Dicenzo 8-11 .421%

Here's win/loss vs teams that finished under .500 the last 5 years.
Devanney 25-1
Raymond 23-2
Mills 17-7
Civetti 20-4
Dicenzo 24-2

Just did this for fun, but to us this and Mole's data shows that wins/ loss dont separate these coaches at all so you have to look beyond that. Thought it was interesting if you go back further there was a time EJ Mills and Amherst lost 3 games in 5 seasons. Sorry for another rant this rain in CA in unrelenting and we are bored of the news. Lumbercat we will answer your question on talent over the past seasons.

[nescac1]

We agree. 

(Just wanted to see what posting in the collective voice felt like ... not bad!)

[lumbercat]

Not saying Devanney can't coach, he's a very good coach but I think Mills is better. Devanney would move the needle anyplace but he's got a fantastic combination of things at Trinity that others in the league don't have which gives him a profound advantage.

[Charlie]

Not saying Devanney can't coach, he's a very good coach but I think Mills is better. Devanney would move the needle anyplace but he's got a fantastic combination of things at Trinity that others in the league don't have which gives him a profound advantage.

It gets old the Board keeps saying that Devanney has an advantage that others do not. It is not his fault that the school is behind their football program. Every single Head Coach before him had the backing of the school hence the tradition. Every school in the NESCAC could have a good football program and they elect not to for a myriad of different reasons. Why are we faulting a man who has the backing of his College. He still has to Coach , scheme and win. He has done that. I am sure if he was not winning he would be fired this is a business after all. Why are we faulting a man who has positioned himself in a good program and can coach. All I have heard is that Hammer at Bowdoin is changing the culture that has yet to be seen. If they want to win then the school needs to be behind them. More Coaches have left that program than wins.

Tufts is starting to do this but I think Civetti in game Coaching decisions have put him in his right place ranking wise. Williams is starting the upward swing in recruiting and it will be a few years when and if they rebound. The next few will be  test for Raymond. I am sure if you ask they had a few bad years of recruitment and it caught up to them.

If Bowdoin wants to win the administration would back the program and so goes it for the other schools. We will see if Bates does turn it around and if they do will be it will be proof that it is admissions that plays a big part in this.

You will see that Mills is a great Coach but once admissions stepped in he was not able to get the desirable athletes he wanted and they have dropped down in rankings. Wesleyan has had great recruits and talented rosters are we saying the HC can't Coach ?. His real test will be the next few years if he can stock up on athletes.

No matter what we should not fault a school for backing its Coach they all can do it and elect not to.

[lumbercat]

Charlie-

Who is faulting Devanney?

[Charlie]

Charlie-

Who is faulting Devanney?

When Lumbercat indicated that the situation Devanney is in is far better than other schools. He is solid Coach in great situation and its a shame other schools do not try and emulate the program. I get it football is not a priority.

I am just saying that if the other schools supported theri football programs like Trinity football wise the league would be even more competitive.

Curious was the post I read about potential playoffs and spring ball serious or just Message board banter ?

[lumbercat]

Yes Charlie - he is a solid coach in a good place- not sure what you are saying beyond that but I respect your opinion.

I agree that the NESCAC would be a better place if all schools operated on the Trinity platform but that just isn't the case.

It's not the Big 10, Patriot league or even the Ivies where all the schools operate on a pretty level playing field- A lot of variation in the NESCAC --been trying to get you to see that.

[Charlie]

Yes Charlie - he is a solid coach in a good place- not sure what you are saying beyond that but I respect your opinion.

I agree that the NESCAC would be a better place if all schools operated on the Trinity platform but that just isn't the case.

It's not the Big 10, Patriot league or even the Ivies where all the schools operate on a pretty level playing field- A lot of variation in the NESCAC --been trying to get you to see that.

I do get it and the schools should close the gap.

I also get frustrated when other conferences have spring ball , playoffs etc

NESCAC schools have so much to offer and its a shame they cannot change and adapt with the change. As another poster said every other sport has this but football.

[lumbercat]

Nescacman

[Ephmen]

Yes Charlie - he is a solid coach in a good place- not sure what you are saying beyond that but I respect your opinion.

I agree that the NESCAC would be a better place if all schools operated on the Trinity platform but that just isn't the case.

It's not the Big 10, Patriot league or even the Ivies where all the schools operate on a pretty level playing field- A lot of variation in the NESCAC --been trying to get you to see that.

Curious what the trinity platform is.

Is it simply being more lenient regarding academic standards and letting more football players / athletes in?

If so, I don't think nescac needs to follow suit.  As a Williams alum, I'm fine with Williams not admitting some players who will get into other NESCAC schools.  Im also not sure there's any need to admit more football players (or other athletes).  The school seems to have hit a pretty good balance from what I've seen, both in recent years and going back decades.