FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[MammothDad]

FACTS:

Records for NESCAC teams last three years ('21, '22 and '23). Indicative of how the 2024 senior class (and 5th year) players have fared and possible expectations for the upcoming season. No one is prognosticating championships, the games need to be played, but track record and returning experience is more important than opinion. 

Trinity 25-2, 1 outright championship, 1 shared
Middlebury 18-9. 1 shared championship
Wesleyan 18-9, winning record vs every team in the 3 year period except Bantams. Certainly mediocre and not a contender
Tufts 16-11, did they miss their shot?
Williams 15-12, 1 outright championship
Amherst 11-16, should they ever have a losing record?
Colby 11-16, great facilities and support, not translating to the field
Bowdoin 8-19, Hammered out a few decent wins and much improved, can they move up the ladder?
Hamilton 7-20, Can they build upon the Tufts W or was it an aberration?
Bates 6-21, can only get better from here

"Amherst 11-16, should they ever have a losing record?"

Do you mind sharing your thoughts on this statement?  Is it because of "facilities", national appeal to recruit, etc?

Thank you in advance!

[Pat Coleman]

https://www.d3football.com/awards/all-americans/2023
Congrats to all NESCAC players...

Interesting to see that neither Fetter or Clapp received any honors and that Richardson did. I understand that Richardson had a great season and is athletically gifted maybe more than anyone in the NESCAC, but Clapp had far and away a better season. And if Fetter did not make an All-American team, then I don't know if it's possible for a NESCAC QB to go All-American in this day and age.

4th team AA is really something else. Why stop there, let's make it like lax where upright and a pulse gets you nominated;)

Have to be kidding, right? Four teams out of 240 eligible Division III football playing members means that only 1.67% of all starting quarterbacks make the list.

Even with four, it's a crazy exclusive list. When we sat down to look at quarterbacks, it was from a list of literally 14 quarterbacks for four spots. Lots of great quarterbacks this year and less than one-third of even the "great" quarterbacks made the team.

In the previous decade, there were two "outlets" that literally put a hundred or more kids on an honorable mention team. I get that we name twice as many kids as the AFCA does, but it's the AFCA that is moving in our direction, not the other way around.

[GroundandPound]

BigKat,
I think it is good that D3 does First through Fourth All-America Teams.  There are about 257 D3 Football teams from my last count.
CAA does three all conference team and HM list for 15 teams. 3 for 15 teams v. 4 for 257 teams. 
https://caasports.com/news/2023/11/21/monmouths-shirden-ualbanys-kelly-headline-2023-caa-football-all-conference-awards.aspx

[Pat Coleman]

BigKat,
I think it is good that D3 does First through Fourth All-America Teams.  There are about 257 D3 Football teams from my last count.

There are 241, 240 of which are full D-III members and are eligible for awards.

[The Mole]

Who do they "loose" (IYKYK  ) recruits to? Why didn't your son choose Middlebury over Amherst? Had not had a losing season since 1993 and 3 of the last 4 have been losing records. League has historically been dominated by Williams, Amherst and Trinity. Why were they winning in the first place? 

FACTS:

Records for NESCAC teams last three years ('21, '22 and '23). Indicative of how the 2024 senior class (and 5th year) players have fared and possible expectations for the upcoming season. No one is prognosticating championships, the games need to be played, but track record and returning experience is more important than opinion. 

Trinity 25-2, 1 outright championship, 1 shared
Middlebury 18-9. 1 shared championship
Wesleyan 18-9, winning record vs every team in the 3 year period except Bantams. Certainly mediocre and not a contender
Tufts 16-11, did they miss their shot?
Williams 15-12, 1 outright championship
Amherst 11-16, should they ever have a losing record?
Colby 11-16, great facilities and support, not translating to the field
Bowdoin 8-19, Hammered out a few decent wins and much improved, can they move up the ladder?
Hamilton 7-20, Can they build upon the Tufts W or was it an aberration?
Bates 6-21, can only get better from here

"Amherst 11-16, should they ever have a losing record?"

Do you mind sharing your thoughts on this statement?  Is it because of "facilities", national appeal to recruit, etc?

Thank you in advance!

[SpringSt7]

I know there are a number of different voices and opinions on this board so I don't expect there to be a consistent consensus but struggling with how last week and the week before it was "anyone can do what Fetter did at Trinity" and now it's "Fetter should be an AA". For whatever it's worth, I think Fetter was under appreciated for his 3 years but by no stretch was he an All-American type of player. Not sure who the last NESCAC QB was that should've been in that conversation but it isn't him.

[NE Football Fan]

Rumor has it NESCAC Coordinator is up for Union job and it may trickle down to transfers as well.

[Hawk196]

Ha, let's say he was best at his position-and agreat weapon to have. Fetter and Berluti were the two best players in the league regardless of who makes what post season team.

Tufts OL who made 2nd team All American was surprising. Freeman was strides ahead of him. Not to discredit it, as he is a good player. Just curious as to what the entry is to the All American team.

Tufts Olineman - Cepalia

All NESCAC First team ('22 & '23)
D3football.com First team All Region ('22 & '23)
New England Football Writers' All New England Team ('23)
D3 All-American ('22 & '23) - First player in Tufts program history to accomplish twice

Fun fact he was Tommy DeVito's Left Tackle at Don Bosco Prep

"Freeman was strides ahead of him".....you would think so at 6'5" and 295lbs against the same NESCAC competition.
At 6'2" and 265lbs "that Tufts OL" must have better technique (gave up 1 sack in '22 & zero in '23).
Similar NESCAC awards, but that's it. National recognition....New England Region recognition(D2 & D3) about 4000 players.....So not that surprising

[The Mole]

Ghost JW, I have to ask where are you getting the "promised jump to standalone league champ" phrase from? To your point, since Whales and Dice have arrived, the program has been transformed from an also ran to 11 winning seasons in a row. If we are lamenting about 3 consecutive 6-3 campaigns, that says a ton about the expectations that have been established, which is a huge positive.
This has been a league dominated by 3 teams (Trinity, Williams & Amherst) for over 50 years. Middlebury has caught up to Amherst and Williams in terms of number of titles since 2000 (and has really surpassed both). After those 4 teams, only Wesleyan (2) and Colby (1) have even shared titles since 1992. Mules have not had a winning season since 2005. Tufts, Bowdoin, Hamilton and Bates have not had a single title, even shared.
I argue that the Cards are punching above their weight class. Have there been disappointing losses? YES. Is it due to poor coaching? NO. They have gotten into the top half/tier, the next move up is within reach, but that jump is a very difficult one. 

[The Ghost of John Wesley]

Ghost JW, I have to ask where are you getting the "promised jump to standalone league champ" phrase from? To your point, since Whales and Dice have arrived, the program has been transformed from an also ran to 11 winning seasons in a row. If we are lamenting about 3 consecutive 6-3 campaigns, that says a ton about the expectations that have been established, which is a huge positive.
This has been a league dominated by 3 teams (Trinity, Williams & Amherst) for over 50 years. Middlebury has caught up to Amherst and Williams in terms of number of titles since 2000 (and has really surpassed both). After those 4 teams, only Wesleyan (2) and Colby (1) have even shared titles since 1992. Mules have not had a winning season since 2005. Tufts, Bowdoin, Hamilton and Bates have not had a single title, even shared.
I argue that the Cards are punching above their weight class. Have there been disappointing losses? YES. Is it due to poor coaching? NO. They have gotten into the top half/tier, the next move up is within reach, but that jump is a very difficult one.

Yes, obviously a standalone league title hasn't been publicly promised by the coaches or players. My gripe mostly comes from overly vocal Wes fans who have seemingly anointed Wes as a top-tier team despite the program not having a single uncontested league title. You said it yourself: Trinity, Williams, Amherst, and Middlebury have dominated the league. Those are the top tier programs, and they can point to the trophy case to prove it. In a league that has ten teams, I don't think you can consider yourself a top tier team until you've at least won the league outright one time, but I admit that's a matter of opinion. Your mileage may vary.

As a Wes alum, I get vicarious embarrassment when people brag or trash talk about winning against down Williams and Amherst programs when the team is also consistently dropping games to the CBB or getting blown out by multiple teams in the league. I just find it distasteful to talk up beating a 3-6 Williams team while losing by 5+ touchdowns to your "peers" at the top of the league. Win the big games that matter against the tough opponents and then talk trash if that's what you want to do.

I have said several times that the program has made incredible leaps in its success. It's remarkable, to be honest. Comparing the performance over the last decade to the preceding decade is amazing. But the job is not done.

[Vandy74]

I know there are a number of different voices and opinions on this board so I don't expect there to be a consistent consensus but struggling with how last week and the week before it was "anyone can do what Fetter did at Trinity" and now it's "Fetter should be an AA". For whatever it's worth, I think Fetter was under appreciated for his 3 years but by no stretch was he an All-American type of player. Not sure who the last NESCAC QB was that should've been in that conversation but it isn't him.

Many posters on this board like to complain about Nescac players being slighted for national honors, but few seem to understand the difference in how football is played among the perennial contenders and the top teams in this conference.  Fetter had a very impressive career, but he was only a threat throwing the football.  Carter St. John, Alma's 4th team all-America selection, not only threw for 38 touchdowns, but ran for 8 more, gaining 444 net yards over the course of the season.  First team selection Luke Lehman threw for 48 touchdowns while scoring 13 on the ground.  He had 850 net yards rushing and averaged 57 per game.  While Fetter's passing statistics become somewhat comparable to these QBs when prorated to reflect 2-3 postseason games, the fact remains that he's a one-dimensional player.

The same was true of Middlebury's Mac Foote, who in 2013 was one of 4 finalists for the Gagliardi Trophy.  He was not an all-American selection that season.  He actually had better stats in 2012 and apart from interceptions and overall efficiency rating was more impressive than Fetter was this past season.  In 8 games he threw for 2897 yards at a 64% clip, with 31 TDs and 8 interceptions while averaging 362 ypg.  But, like Fetter, opponents didn't worry about his ability to run the ball.  That means with 240 other competitors to choose from, neither were apt to be on the all-American selectors' radar.  Two recent Nescac QBs with the skill sets to earn such an honor were Bobby Maimaron and Will Jernigan.  We can only speculate on what would have happened if their 9-0 squads had been allowed to play postseason and won a game or two, but without that opportunity the all-American QB position won't be awarded to anyone in this conference.



   

[Pat Coleman]

... the all-American QB position won't be awarded to anyone in this conference.

And really, the other thing to keep in mind, is that in any given year, at least 25 of Division III's 29 conferences won't have anyone awarded an All-America spot at quarterback.

[The Mole]

I am gonna come back at you again, Ghost. "Embarrassed" by winning the Little 3 ? You are denigrating the accomplishments of the players that have achieved something that has not been done since 1969-1970, winning back to back Little 3 crowns. Further underscoring the aforementioned dominance of the teams in purple and the strides the Cards have made. You may not be intending it, but your comments are dismissive, much emphasis is placed on those games. Not meaningful to you, but they are to the players. Using your parlance, that is your opinion and the mileage certainly varies. Assumption that you never suited up making comments like that....

Shall we define consistently losing games to the CBB? 17 wins in a row to Bates (last loss in 2005 in OT when were 0-8), Lost to Bowdoin last year and had beaten them 9 times in a row) and had beaten Colby 12 times in a row until losing this year.  Come on, man.

Ghost JW, I have to ask where are you getting the "promised jump to standalone league champ" phrase from? To your point, since Whales and Dice have arrived, the program has been transformed from an also ran to 11 winning seasons in a row. If we are lamenting about 3 consecutive 6-3 campaigns, that says a ton about the expectations that have been established, which is a huge positive.
This has been a league dominated by 3 teams (Trinity, Williams & Amherst) for over 50 years. Middlebury has caught up to Amherst and Williams in terms of number of titles since 2000 (and has really surpassed both). After those 4 teams, only Wesleyan (2) and Colby (1) have even shared titles since 1992. Mules have not had a winning season since 2005. Tufts, Bowdoin, Hamilton and Bates have not had a single title, even shared.
I argue that the Cards are punching above their weight class. Have there been disappointing losses? YES. Is it due to poor coaching? NO. They have gotten into the top half/tier, the next move up is within reach, but that jump is a very difficult one.

Yes, obviously a standalone league title hasn't been publicly promised by the coaches or players. My gripe mostly comes from overly vocal Wes fans who have seemingly anointed Wes as a top-tier team despite the program not having a single uncontested league title. You said it yourself: Trinity, Williams, Amherst, and Middlebury have dominated the league. Those are the top tier programs, and they can point to the trophy case to prove it. In a league that has ten teams, I don't think you can consider yourself a top tier team until you've at least won the league outright one time, but I admit that's a matter of opinion. Your mileage may vary.

As a Wes alum, I get vicarious embarrassment when people brag or trash talk about winning against down Williams and Amherst programs when the team is also consistently dropping games to the CBB or getting blown out by multiple teams in the league. I just find it distasteful to talk up beating a 3-6 Williams team while losing by 5+ touchdowns to your "peers" at the top of the league. Win the big games that matter against the tough opponents and then talk trash if that's what you want to do.

I have said several times that the program has made incredible leaps in its success. It's remarkable, to be honest. Comparing the performance over the last decade to the preceding decade is amazing. But the job is not done.

[lumbercat]

Gotta agree with the Mole on this one. Based on his comments and narratives the Ghost seems like a grandstander at best- kind of a second guesser who professes to know how to get it done but has never actually been in the fray himself. More of a critic.
I could be wrong and we may find he was a great one in Cards history but I  doubt that based on his comments.

[The Ghost of John Wesley]

I am gonna come back at you again, Ghost. "Embarrassed" by winning the Little 3 ? You are denigrating the accomplishments of the players that have achieved something that has not been done since 1969-1970, winning back to back Little 3 crowns. Further underscoring the aforementioned dominance of the teams in purple and the strides the Cards have made. You may not be intending it, but your comments are dismissive, much emphasis is placed on those games. Not meaningful to you, but they are to the players. Using your parlance, that is your opinion and the mileage certainly varies. Assumption that you never suited up making comments like that....

Shall we define consistently losing games to the CBB? 17 wins in a row to Bates (last loss in 2005 in OT when were 0-8), Lost to Bowdoin last year and had beaten them 9 times in a row) and had beaten Colby 12 times in a row until losing this year.  Come on, man.

Ghost JW, I have to ask where are you getting the "promised jump to standalone league champ" phrase from? To your point, since Whales and Dice have arrived, the program has been transformed from an also ran to 11 winning seasons in a row. If we are lamenting about 3 consecutive 6-3 campaigns, that says a ton about the expectations that have been established, which is a huge positive.
This has been a league dominated by 3 teams (Trinity, Williams & Amherst) for over 50 years. Middlebury has caught up to Amherst and Williams in terms of number of titles since 2000 (and has really surpassed both). After those 4 teams, only Wesleyan (2) and Colby (1) have even shared titles since 1992. Mules have not had a winning season since 2005. Tufts, Bowdoin, Hamilton and Bates have not had a single title, even shared.
I argue that the Cards are punching above their weight class. Have there been disappointing losses? YES. Is it due to poor coaching? NO. They have gotten into the top half/tier, the next move up is within reach, but that jump is a very difficult one.

Yes, obviously a standalone league title hasn't been publicly promised by the coaches or players. My gripe mostly comes from overly vocal Wes fans who have seemingly anointed Wes as a top-tier team despite the program not having a single uncontested league title. You said it yourself: Trinity, Williams, Amherst, and Middlebury have dominated the league. Those are the top tier programs, and they can point to the trophy case to prove it. In a league that has ten teams, I don't think you can consider yourself a top tier team until you've at least won the league outright one time, but I admit that's a matter of opinion. Your mileage may vary.

As a Wes alum, I get vicarious embarrassment when people brag or trash talk about winning against down Williams and Amherst programs when the team is also consistently dropping games to the CBB or getting blown out by multiple teams in the league. I just find it distasteful to talk up beating a 3-6 Williams team while losing by 5+ touchdowns to your "peers" at the top of the league. Win the big games that matter against the tough opponents and then talk trash if that's what you want to do.

I have said several times that the program has made incredible leaps in its success. It's remarkable, to be honest. Comparing the performance over the last decade to the preceding decade is amazing. But the job is not done.

"Vicarious embarrassment when people brag and trash talk about winning against down Williams and Amherst programs when the team is also consistently dropping games to the CBB or getting blown out by multiple teams in the league" certainly does not equal "Embarrassed by winning the Little 3." I know you have a point to make, but it shouldn't take an exercise in deductive reasoning to realize that those are completely different sentiments. I very much feel the former; I have never felt the latter.

I understand that comments about success/struggles with Wes are particularly raw to you because you have a son on the current team. I apologize if what I have said and continue to say feels insulting or malicious--that is not my intention.

My intention is to be the counterweight to the typical bluster and bloviating that puts targets on the backs of the Wesleyan team and its players. We all watched this season play out, on this board and in real life, and we received confirmation from players directly that they read these boards and pay attention to what is said here. It's not an exact science, but it's easy to draw a line between one notorious poster's comments about a certain team in Hartford and the absolute bloodbath we witnessed in Middletown on November 11. Why behave in a way that makes the jobs of the coaches and players more difficult? Why put a target on their backs?

I've never been a fan of unnecessary trash talk or bravado. My comments over the last couple of years have had a consistent undercurrent: Win the biggest games first, talk trash after if you wish. I've always felt that the best statements are made on the field and those supersede any that are made verbally or in the hallowed pages of forums and message boards. I will always feel that way.

"Assumption that you never suited up making comments like that...." Assume whatever you want. It won't make the assumption correct or my comments any less valid.