FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[pumkinattack]

Ahh, the thread hijack. 

I sort of agree with U89 that you guys are being too hard on them.  It's not like before the season when the Trinity poster wanted to brag about their win % and compare it with the rest of the field. 

That being said, a poster on this board who's from a NESCAC school shouldn't need to ask the playoff question. 

[nescac1]

Really enjoy the anti-NESCAC vitriol.  If so many folks hate you, you must be doing something right.

First, there is no way any football game could ever mean more to Williams and Amherst players and alumni than the rivalry game to end the year.  There is a reason College Gameday broadcast from that game as opposed to some random playoff game.  Of course, not sure that logic holds up for anyone else in the conference, where the rivalries are less clear or less 1-to-1. 

More generally, the answer why football is different from every other sport is obvious. It takes a LOT more football players, each earning (on average) a MUCH more severe admissions concession, to be remotely competitive with other D-3 schools in football, than in other sports.  NESCAC schools have been moving the OTHER direction -- they cap football rosters at 75, the admission floor for athletes has risen substantially over the past decade, etc.  It's like asking, why doesn't the Ivy league play D I-A and compete with the likes of USC?  They'd either get decimated, or have to change their entire admissions ethos, which they aren't willing to do.  It's relatively easy for a NESCAC school to find 2-3 very good soccer or hoops players who generally fit in on campus, in terms of academics, each year. It is MUCH more difficult to find 15 or so ace football players, each year, who don't require massive admissions concessions (for Williams, we are talking about RARELY going below 1300 SAT for a football player nowadays, big difference from 15 years ago -- how many star football players, who aren't scooped up by Ivy leagues or good enough to earn a D-I scholarship, are even out there with those types of credentials?  Multiply times eight NESCAC schools times 75 kids each, and that is the problem) ....  The schools have found a happy medium whereby they can compete with each other, but don't feel a pressure to compete (and potentially be embarassed) nationally, inevitably upping the pressure on coaches / admissions to substantially lower admissions standards.  It's nothing to do with snobbery or anything like that and everything to do with core institutional mission and the fear of pressures to reverse the recent trend in cutting back admissions concessions.  Believe me, if anything, many NESCAC schools feel football is STILL over-emphasized on campuses, alas. 

[PBR...]

Really enjoy the anti-NESCAC vitriol.  If so many folks hate you, you must be doing something right.

First, there is no way any football game could ever mean more to Williams and Amherst players and alumni than the rivalry game to end the year.  There is a reason College Gameday broadcast from that game as opposed to some random playoff game.  Of course, not sure that logic holds up for anyone else in the conference, where the rivalries are less clear or less 1-to-1. 

More generally, the answer why football is different from every other sport is obvious. It takes a LOT more football players, each earning (on average) a MUCH more severe admissions concession, to be remotely competitive with other D-3 schools in football, than in other sports.  NESCAC schools have been moving the OTHER direction -- they cap football rosters at 75, the admission floor for athletes has risen substantially over the past decade, etc.  It's like asking, why doesn't the Ivy league play D I-A and compete with the likes of USC?  They'd either get decimated, or have to change their entire admissions ethos, which they aren't willing to do.  It's relatively easy for a NESCAC school to find 2-3 very good soccer or hoops players who generally fit in on campus, in terms of academics, each year. It is MUCH more difficult to find 15 or so ace football players, each year, who don't require massive admissions concessions (for Williams, we are talking about RARELY going below 1300 SAT for a football player nowadays, big difference from 15 years ago -- how many star football players, who aren't scooped up by Ivy leagues or good enough to earn a D-I scholarship, are even out there with those types of credentials?  Multiply times eight NESCAC schools times 75 kids each, and that is the problem) ....  The schools have found a happy medium whereby they can compete with each other, but don't feel a pressure to compete (and potentially be embarassed) nationally, inevitably upping the pressure on coaches / admissions to substantially lower admissions standards.  It's nothing to do with snobbery or anything like that and everything to do with core institutional mission and the fear of pressures to reverse the recent trend in cutting back admissions concessions.  Believe me, if anything, many NESCAC schools feel football is STILL over-emphasized on campuses, alas. 

there is a reason espn also broadcasts the d3 national championship game....

[Jonny Utah]

Really enjoy the anti-NESCAC vitriol.  If so many folks hate you, you must be doing something right.

First, there is no way any football game could ever mean more to Williams and Amherst players and alumni than the rivalry game to end the year.  There is a reason College Gameday broadcast from that game as opposed to some random playoff game.  Of course, not sure that logic holds up for anyone else in the conference, where the rivalries are less clear or less 1-to-1. 

More generally, the answer why football is different from every other sport is obvious. It takes a LOT more football players, each earning (on average) a MUCH more severe admissions concession, to be remotely competitive with other D-3 schools in football, than in other sports.  NESCAC schools have been moving the OTHER direction -- they cap football rosters at 75, the admission floor for athletes has risen substantially over the past decade, etc.  It's like asking, why doesn't the Ivy league play D I-A and compete with the likes of USC?  They'd either get decimated, or have to change their entire admissions ethos, which they aren't willing to do.  It's relatively easy for a NESCAC school to find 2-3 very good soccer or hoops players who generally fit in on campus, in terms of academics, each year. It is MUCH more difficult to find 15 or so ace football players, each year, who don't require massive admissions concessions (for Williams, we are talking about RARELY going below 1300 SAT for a football player nowadays, big difference from 15 years ago -- how many star football players, who aren't scooped up by Ivy leagues or good enough to earn a D-I scholarship, are even out there with those types of credentials?  Multiply times eight NESCAC schools times 75 kids each, and that is the problem) ....  The schools have found a happy medium whereby they can compete with each other, but don't feel a pressure to compete (and potentially be embarassed) nationally, inevitably upping the pressure on coaches / admissions to substantially lower admissions standards.  It's nothing to do with snobbery or anything like that and everything to do with core institutional mission and the fear of pressures to reverse the recent trend in cutting back admissions concessions.  Believe me, if anything, many NESCAC schools feel football is STILL over-emphasized on campuses, alas. 

I agree with everything you say nescac except for the rivalry part.  Look at any D1 football rivarly.  Im sure Ohio State players love getting up for the Michigan game, and you can bet the hype around that game is much bigger than Williams/Amherst or Ithaca/Cortland.  But Im going to say winning the national championship is going to mean a little more than winning that game.

I can kind of emphasize with Williams and Amherst players about that game, since I played in a game (vs. Cortland) that was just as big, if not bigger some years (with playoff implications most of those years).  I can agree that there won't be bigger crowds at any playoff or national championship game, but there is a difference between the national playoffs and a big rivalry game. 

[pumkinattack]

In fairness, you can't know what it means to even compete for a national championship if you've never experienced it.  I would probably be the same way if I went to Williams or Amherst.  Hell, I nearly transferred to Wesleyan for personal reasons.  At the time, Hobart wasn't really competitive for a national championship, so it wasn't really a concern for me. 

['gro]

I'm out. The NESCAC will forever be known as the AFL... Amish Football League


_{If so many folks hate you, you must be doing something right}

[nescac1]

That is fair enough, but under current recruiting restrictions, there is no feasible prospect that any NESCAC school COULD realistically compete for a national championship, so it is kind of moot ... and I'd say the thrill of merely participating in the playoffs (the best NESCAC could hope for) and maybe advancing 1-2 rounds < rivalry game, even if national title is arguably > rivarly.  

[Jonny Utah]

That is fair enough, but under current recruiting restrictions, there is no feasible prospect that any NESCAC school COULD realistically compete for a national championship, so it is kind of moot ... and I'd say the thrill of merely participating in the playoffs (the best NESCAC could hope for) and maybe advancing 1-2 rounds < rivalry game, even if national title is arguably > rivarly.  

nescac, with Mount Union still around, there is no feasible prospect that ANY eastern college could realistically compete for a national championship.

[Yanks 99]

Really enjoy the anti-NESCAC vitriol.  If so many folks hate you, you must be doing something right.

First, there is no way any football game could ever mean more to Williams and Amherst players and alumni than the rivalry game to end the year.  There is a reason College Gameday broadcast from that game as opposed to some random playoff game.  Of course, not sure that logic holds up for anyone else in the conference, where the rivalries are less clear or less 1-to-1. 

More generally, the answer why football is different from every other sport is obvious. It takes a LOT more football players, each earning (on average) a MUCH more severe admissions concession, to be remotely competitive with other D-3 schools in football, than in other sports.  NESCAC schools have been moving the OTHER direction -- they cap football rosters at 75, the admission floor for athletes has risen substantially over the past decade, etc.  It's like asking, why doesn't the Ivy league play D I-A and compete with the likes of USC?  They'd either get decimated, or have to change their entire admissions ethos, which they aren't willing to do.  It's relatively easy for a NESCAC school to find 2-3 very good soccer or hoops players who generally fit in on campus, in terms of academics, each year. It is MUCH more difficult to find 15 or so ace football players, each year, who don't require massive admissions concessions (for Williams, we are talking about RARELY going below 1300 SAT for a football player nowadays, big difference from 15 years ago -- how many star football players, who aren't scooped up by Ivy leagues or good enough to earn a D-I scholarship, are even out there with those types of credentials?  Multiply times eight NESCAC schools times 75 kids each, and that is the problem) ....  The schools have found a happy medium whereby they can compete with each other, but don't feel a pressure to compete (and potentially be embarassed) nationally, inevitably upping the pressure on coaches / admissions to substantially lower admissions standards.  It's nothing to do with snobbery or anything like that and everything to do with core institutional mission and the fear of pressures to reverse the recent trend in cutting back admissions concessions.  Believe me, if anything, many NESCAC schools feel football is STILL over-emphasized on campuses, alas. 

I agree with everything you say nescac except for the rivalry part.  Look at any D1 football rivarly.  Im sure Ohio State players love getting up for the Michigan game, and you can bet the hype around that game is much bigger than Williams/Amherst or Ithaca/Cortland.  But Im going to say winning the national championship is going to mean a little more than winning that game.

I can kind of emphasize with Williams and Amherst players about that game, since I played in a game (vs. Cortland) that was just as big, if not bigger some years (with playoff implications most of those years).  I can agree that there won't be bigger crowds at any playoff or national championship game, but there is a difference between the national playoffs and a big rivalry game. 

Agreed JU...and this isn't totally knocking the NESCAC, as I am sure many of the coaches/players would love a shot at the National Championship.  Where I disagree with nescac1 is that rivalry games will always be there with a lot of buzz, no matter what the teams records are.  For example...I don't know where the ESPN Game Day folks will be this weekend, and maybe it has already been announced (and I could be wrong on this)...but I bet it will be at the Big House for the Ohio State-Michigan game this weekend.  A great rivaly game, ton of buzz...but at the end of the day, it doesn't really mean anything.  Ohio State win or lose is going to the Rose Bowl and Michigan is still terrible.

To me, a good example of why the playoffs are better then the rivalry games would be Ithaca's run to the NCAA quarterfinals in 2001.  They needed to beat a 5-4 Cortland team just to make it (and barely) into the playoffs.  Ton of people at Butterfield (as usual), great rivalry game in Cortaca, and a tight game.  About 10,000+ if I remember it right.  However, the deeper IC got in the playoffs, the crowds were smaller at Montclair, RPI, and Rowan...but the buzz and feeling was absolutely tremendous...I mean, a National Championship was in sight.  Unless you have seen this, or been around it up close...you cannot describe it.  Obviously, Ithaca got blasted by an outstanding Rowan team...but heading into that game, the buzz absolutely dwarfed anything that you could feel surrounding the Cortaca game.

Just my $.02.

[lewdogg11]

I'm out. The NESCAC will forever be known as the AFL... Amish Football League


_{If so many folks hate you, you must be doing something right}

Truly amazing work Gro +K

Hey I heard Williams football, under the current recruiting restrictions, was looking for some 11th grade astronauts.  No one else could get in under their guidelines.  Any help?


Ain't no party like a tea partayyyy...

[Pat Coleman]

By the way, why do people outside of NESCAC get so concerned over the fact that NESCAC football doesn't go to the playoffs?

I would be interested in Amherst alums and players comments on this.  Since Amherst is the NESCAC champion, you would probably play someone like Maine Maritime or Curry this year, the leaders in the NEFC.  Would you honestly be pumped up to play them?  Not a knock on either team, it's just a matter of tradition.  By the way after seeing both conferences play this season, I'd pick the Jeffs, or Trinity, or Williams.

Actually, an Amherst at 9-0 would likely get a No. 1 seed in the bracket, according to the national committee chair.

http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2009/11/16/interview-with-the-committee-chair

So that means a first-round home game against someone that should definitely be beaten, then a second-round home game in which Amherst would be favored as well, then a third-round home game against someone like Alfred or Delaware Valley. If they won that game, perhaps a trip to Mount Union or Wesley.

[Littlethree]

Sara P. calls them the liberal elitist, D3 football leagues call them the NESCAC. There is no more than a snowballs chance in Hell that any NESCAC team from any year would do well in the playoffs. Having played at a legitimate D3 program, the NESCAC would be little more than a scrimage as we prepare for a full season of 12+ games. An 8 game season with 75 players, leaves more time for chess.   

[lewdogg11]

Sara P. calls them the liberal elitist, D3 football leagues call them the NESCAC. There is no more than a snowballs chance in Hell that any NESCAC team from any year would do well in the playoffs. Having played at a legitimate D3 program, the NESCAC would be little more than a scrimage as we prepare for a full season of 12+ games. An 8 game season with 75 players, leaves more time for chess.   

Who the hell is this guy?

[PBR...]

Sara P. calls them the liberal elitist, D3 football leagues call them the NESCAC. There is no more than a snowballs chance in Hell that any NESCAC team from any year would do well in the playoffs. Having played at a legitimate D3 program, the NESCAC would be little more than a scrimage as we prepare for a full season of 12+ games. An 8 game season with 75 players, leaves more time for chess.   

Who the hell is this guy?

LOL...was thinking the exact same thing....reminds me of the guys when a scrum is starting in a bar and everyone is squared off and some dood comes out of nowhere and drops a haymaker on someones chin and all hell breaks loose...

['gro]

Sara P. calls them the liberal elitist, D3 football leagues call them the NESCAC. There is no more than a snowballs chance in Hell that any NESCAC team from any year would do well in the playoffs. Having played at a legitimate D3 program, the NESCAC would be little more than a scrimage as we prepare for a full season of 12+ games. An 8 game season with 75 players, leaves more time for chess.   

Who the hell is this guy?

Seriously. Most of the bitching we lay on the AFL is because we believe that they could compete in the playoffs.

Jeddediah... come out and plaaaaaay.