FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[DoubleDomer]

Why are New Englanders so arrogant? Do you really believe that the only choice is Nescac or Curry? What about Patriot Leage, Davidson and the Pioneer League, how about Pomona, Whitter, Claremont? I know most in the Nescac can't believe it, but there are some very smart young men who don't go to Choate or Exeter and do attend these other schools because the football is better.

Also new to the board, and have to say that Lobstaman is right on.  My son has spent the last 6 months being recruited by most of the NESCAC (to be specific: Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Trinity, Wesleyan, Hamilton, and Colby), as well as by Army, Penn, Brown, and Bucknell, and a handful of top D3s elsewhere (Carleton, Grinnell, Pomona, and Claremont McKenna).  He has former teammates playing at Amherst, Williams, and Middlebury, and so has seen every NESCAC except Bates play at least once, and has been to the Dartmouth camp, the Amherst overnight camp, and the one-day camps at Middlebury and Williams.  Decision: (1) Claremont McKenna; (2) Carleton; (3) Bucknell; (4) Army; (5) Wes.  First, the obvious: Every kid is different. Second, the equally obvious (at least to a Midwesterner like me): NESCAC football is no great shakes.  As one competing coach said with a wink: "The winner of the NESCAC only gets to play 8 games, for which they earn the privilege of being the 20th-ranked D3 team in the East. Hurray."

From where I sit, NESCAC doesn't measure up as a football conference--at the top end, anyway--to the MIAC (St. Thomas, St. John's, Bethel) or the SCIAC (Cal Lu, for sure, and probably Redlands and CMC as well), and nowhere close to the Patriot League.  (Bucknell won ONE game this year.  They would bury Amherst, Willliams, or Trinity.)  And academically, Carleton, Pomona, and CMC give away very, very little to Amherst, Williams & Middlebury--and nothing to Wes.

[lewdogg11]

Why are New Englanders so arrogant? Do you really believe that the only choice is Nescac or Curry? What about Patriot Leage, Davidson and the Pioneer League, how about Pomona, Whitter, Claremont? I know most in the Nescac can't believe it, but there are some very smart young men who don't go to Choate or Exeter and do attend these other schools because the football is better.

Also new to the board, and have to say that Lobstaman is right on.  My son has spent the last 6 months being recruited by most of the NESCAC (to be specific: Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Trinity, Wesleyan, Hamilton, and Colby), as well as by Army, Penn, Brown, and Bucknell, and a handful of top D3s elsewhere (Carleton, Grinnell, Pomona, and Claremont McKenna).  He has former teammates playing at Amherst, Williams, and Middlebury, and so has seen every NESCAC except Bates play at least once, and has been to the Dartmouth camp, the Amherst overnight camp, and the one-day camps at Middlebury and Williams.  Decision: (1) Claremont McKenna; (2) Carleton; (3) Bucknell; (4) Army; (5) Wes.  First, the obvious: Every kid is different. Second, the equally obvious (at least to a Midwesterner like me): NESCAC football is no great shakes.  As one competing coach said with a wink: "The winner of the NESCAC only gets to play 8 games, for which they earn the privilege of being the 20th-ranked D3 team in the East. Hurray."

From where I sit, NESCAC doesn't measure up as a football conference--at the top end, anyway--to the MIAC (St. Thomas, St. John's, Bethel) or the SCIAC (Cal Lu, for sure, and probably Redlands and CMC as well), and nowhere close to the Patriot League.  (Bucknell won ONE game this year.  They would bury Amherst, Willliams, or Trinity.)  And academically, Carleton, Pomona, and CMC give away very, very little to Amherst, Williams & Middlebury--and nothing to Wes.

Do you know iamhuge???

[union89]

Why are New Englanders so arrogant? Do you really believe that the only choice is Nescac or Curry? What about Patriot Leage, Davidson and the Pioneer League, how about Pomona, Whitter, Claremont? I know most in the Nescac can't believe it, but there are some very smart young men who don't go to Choate or Exeter and do attend these other schools because the football is better.

Also new to the board, and have to say that Lobstaman is right on.  My son has spent the last 6 months being recruited by most of the NESCAC (to be specific: Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Trinity, Wesleyan, Hamilton, and Colby), as well as by Army, Penn, Brown, and Bucknell, and a handful of top D3s elsewhere (Carleton, Grinnell, Pomona, and Claremont McKenna).  He has former teammates playing at Amherst, Williams, and Middlebury, and so has seen every NESCAC except Bates play at least once, and has been to the Dartmouth camp, the Amherst overnight camp, and the one-day camps at Middlebury and Williams.  Decision: (1) Claremont McKenna; (2) Carleton; (3) Bucknell; (4) Army; (5) Wes.  First, the obvious: Every kid is different. Second, the equally obvious (at least to a Midwesterner like me): NESCAC football is no great shakes.  As one competing coach said with a wink: "The winner of the NESCAC only gets to play 8 games, for which they earn the privilege of being the 20th-ranked D3 team in the East. Hurray."

From where I sit, NESCAC doesn't measure up as a football conference--at the top end, anyway--to the MIAC (St. Thomas, St. John's, Bethel) or the SCIAC (Cal Lu, for sure, and probably Redlands and CMC as well), and nowhere close to the Patriot League.  (Bucknell won ONE game this year.  They would bury Amherst, Willliams, or Trinity.)  And academically, Carleton, Pomona, and CMC give away very, very little to Amherst, Williams & Middlebury--and nothing to Wes.

Do you know iamhuge???

Outstanding.....+1

[nescac1]

First some football news, before I get to the (really old, by this point) discussion of NESCAC admissions (and really, I don't understand why those outside of NESCAC are SO concerned about what NESCAC schools are doing, anyway).  

Congrats to Pat Moffitt no being named New England Football Writers D2/3 player of the year:

http://www.iberkshires.com/story/36952/Eph-Senior-Named-NE-Football-Writers-Gold-Helmet-of-the-Year-Winner.html

Three Ephs (Moffitt, Canina and Rose), three Bants (Melendez, Fallas, Hunt), one Cardinal (Dwyer) and one Jeff (Rawson) were named to the first team.   All had enormous years.  I imagine Darren Hartwell and Dylan Schultz of Williams just missed ...

I'd be willing to bet BIG money that no more than five kids per year who choose some other college over Williams for football would have made a different choice if Williams was playoff eligible in football.  And I think five is a VERY generous number, probably closer to 1, 2 or zero.  Williams (and schools like it) are simply not going to change admissions policies based on concern over the admissions implications for a tiny handful of kids, especially when there are plenty of more kids just as qualified clammoring for those same spots.  Now, if Williams changed its NCAA policy for ALL sports, in the aggregate, that might affect a few more admissions decisions.  But NESCAC schools already feel, in many cases, that football requires WAY too many admissions slots, and far too large concessions in terms of qualifications, than any other sport.  I'm not saying I agree, but that is the sentiment by the faculty and administration at many of these schools.  

What Aaron Kelton has said, and I agree with him, is the bigger priority is playing the entire conference (nine games per year), rather than eight.  I can't for the life of me understand why NESCAC doesn't add one more game in September so that schools can play all of their peers year in, year out.  

From what I understand, in fact, NESCAC came VERY close to going the other way - eliminating NCAA competition for ALL sports.  The more successful schools (Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Trinity, I'd guess) strongly value NCAA play, but for the rest of the conference, all that does is create more pressure without much in the way of tangible results.  

[DoubleDomer]

No, I don't know iamhuge.  But if you'd care to engage in a discussion of the substance of the matter rather than one that involves the sorts of sly winks and self-satisfied sniffing that so typifies the NESCAC, I believe I'm more than up to your rather modest challenge.

[nescac1]

I guess if sly winks and self-satisfied sniffing "typifies" the NESCAC, then bitterness and petty jealousy "typifies" those who aren't at NESCAC, but wish they could be ...

(for the record, I think that neither is true ... but why don't you stop with generalizing about people and schools you know little about ...). 

Claremont McKenna is better for your kid. That is great, and he'll get a fantastic education there.  I (and I don't see any other NESCAC'ers doing it either) don't go over to the SCIAC board and bitch and moan about CMC.  Different strokes for different folks -- if you don't like NESCAC, go elsewhere which is a better fit, or offers what you need.  If you like the NESCAC model, great.  If you don't, that is also great.  I don't see why every conference, and every school, has to be the same.  As much, as a Williams fan, fun it would be to see the Ephs try to compete with the big boys nationally, there is also something to be said to end the year with a win over Amherst (and in some cases, the Walk).  Either way, there is plenty to like about Williams, and I'm not sure why a few non-NESCAC people get so up in arms about a policy that doesn't affect them in any event.

[labart96]

Why are New Englanders so arrogant? Do you really believe that the only choice is Nescac or Curry? What about Patriot Leage, Davidson and the Pioneer League, how about Pomona, Whitter, Claremont? I know most in the Nescac can't believe it, but there are some very smart young men who don't go to Choate or Exeter and do attend these other schools because the football is better.

Also new to the board, and have to say that Lobstaman is right on.  My son has spent the last 6 months being recruited by most of the NESCAC (to be specific: Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Trinity, Wesleyan, Hamilton, and Colby), as well as by Army, Penn, Brown, and Bucknell, and a handful of top D3s elsewhere (Carleton, Grinnell, Pomona, and Claremont McKenna).  He has former teammates playing at Amherst, Williams, and Middlebury, and so has seen every NESCAC except Bates play at least once, and has been to the Dartmouth camp, the Amherst overnight camp, and the one-day camps at Middlebury and Williams.  Decision: (1) Claremont McKenna; (2) Carleton; (3) Bucknell; (4) Army; (5) Wes.  First, the obvious: Every kid is different. Second, the equally obvious (at least to a Midwesterner like me): NESCAC football is no great shakes.  As one competing coach said with a wink: "The winner of the NESCAC only gets to play 8 games, for which they earn the privilege of being the 20th-ranked D3 team in the East. Hurray."

From where I sit, NESCAC doesn't measure up as a football conference--at the top end, anyway--to the MIAC (St. Thomas, St. John's, Bethel) or the SCIAC (Cal Lu, for sure, and probably Redlands and CMC as well), and nowhere close to the Patriot League.  (Bucknell won ONE game this year.  They would bury Amherst, Willliams, or Trinity.)  And academically, Carleton, Pomona, and CMC give away very, very little to Amherst, Williams & Middlebury--and nothing to Wes.

I live in LA and think CMC is a great school, but an average to mediocre football one at best.  They had a more competitive season this year than in years past - 7 wins - but generally the Stags have averaged about 4 wins a season since 2006.

That and the SCIAC's geographic location is a big disadvantage play-offs wise (e.g., Redlands was in Pool C "consideration" - not really - but wasn't even the last team out, so the only way to the NCAAs in the SCIAC or NWC for that matter - see PLU - is via Pool A).

Still, good for your son if he has the grades to get into all the schools you listed above.  Based on that group he'll be a winner (education-wise) no matter where he ends up. 

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

No, I don't know iamhuge.  But if you'd care to engage in a discussion of the substance of the matter rather than one that involves the sorts of sly winks and self-satisfied sniffing that so typifies the NESCAC, I believe I'm more than up to your rather modest challenge.

No Longer Negative LD11 and Union89 are not NESCAC posters!  LOL   

[lewdogg11]

No, I don't know iamhuge.  But if you'd care to engage in a discussion of the substance of the matter rather than one that involves the sorts of sly winks and self-satisfied sniffing that so typifies the NESCAC, I believe I'm more than up to your rather modest challenge.

No Longer Negative LD11 and Union89 are not NESCAC posters!  LOL   

True, but U89 wears a mean cardigan...

[Doid23]

Mt. Union would punish most FCS teams. 

And here I thought that nothing you wrote could ever surprise me. I stand corrected. That is an absurd comment.

[Doid23]

No, I don't know iamhuge.  But if you'd care to engage in a discussion of the substance of the matter rather than one that involves the sorts of sly winks and self-satisfied sniffing that so typifies the NESCAC, I believe I'm more than up to your rather modest challenge.

Fine. Lobstaman's point (such as it may be) was that NESCAC schools are losing recruits because of their policy of no NCAA playoffs and 8 game schedule. Most here disagree. Unless your son chose Claremont because he didn't like the NESCAC policy of not participating in NCAA football playoffs, then it doesn't support his point. Lobstaman brought up his perception that "New Englanders are arrogant", which was not in response to any post, but just his ranting.  None of the NESCAC posters said that their schools are superior academically to other institutions, although obviously they are elite institutions, and none of them even commented on NESCAC's relative football rank to MIAC, SCIAC, Patriot or any other league. Substantive enough?

[Knightstalker]

While I really detest the NESCAC policy regarding football, both in not participating in the playoffs and in not allowing their schools to play a complete conference schedule by merely adding one game I do not believe that this is a reason for not attending an NESCAC school.  I actually think the NESCAC should leave the NCAA for football and declare club status for all the football programs.  Eliminate the need for NCAA compliance, it would probably save both the schools and the NCAA money and with no OOC games no need to comply with the NCAA for football.  Of course they would have to actually follow NCAA standards to make sure all are eligible for a second sport.  Just a thought, don't know if this has ever been brought up before.

[Jonny Utah]

No, I don't know iamhuge.  But if you'd care to engage in a discussion of the substance of the matter rather than one that involves the sorts of sly winks and self-satisfied sniffing that so typifies the NESCAC, I believe I'm more than up to your rather modest challenge.

Well the funny thing is that if you kid is going to Claremont Colleges, then he has as much of a chance as making the playoffs as a Nescac kid!

In all seriousness, nescac1 is right on.  I know dozens of kids who have played at nescac schools and have talked to probably a hundred more about the issue.  I don't think ONE of them has ever cared about the playoffs.  In the end it is division 3 football, and you aren't going to pick a school based on going to the playoffs or not.

And KS I don't think the nescac cares about the NCAA anyway.  They simply abide by their rules, use ECAC and NCAA refs, and follow the guidelines in all other sports.  They probably wouldn't care if you called them Club or NCAA+ or something like that.  I don't think the money is an issue at all.  I

[Pat Coleman]

While I really detest the NESCAC policy regarding football, both in not participating in the playoffs and in not allowing their schools to play a complete conference schedule by merely adding one game I do not believe that this is a reason for not attending an NESCAC school.  I actually think the NESCAC should leave the NCAA for football and declare club status for all the football programs.  Eliminate the need for NCAA compliance, it would probably save both the schools and the NCAA money and with no OOC games no need to comply with the NCAA for football.  Of course they would have to actually follow NCAA standards to make sure all are eligible for a second sport.  Just a thought, don't know if this has ever been brought up before.

Club status would mean they'd have to provide their own health coverage, which might be a deal-breaker.

[wes cardinal fan]

Nescac1 is right.  Most players in the NESCAC dont care about the playoffs.  In fact it seems most of them care more about the ability to play 2 sports competitively.   Also, he is right, as is Coach Kelton, when he says most of the players would just like to play all of the teams every year.  That is exactly what one of the players said the other day, right down to just start the games a week earlier. 

I also think Wes values NCAA play, especially now that the program has Mike Whalen at the helm.  I think the new President has said he wants WES to be competitive athletically as well as academically, and I think he has backed up his words. 

Congrats to Pat Moffit and heres to Shea Dwyer winning the Gagliardi Award.