FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Trin9-0]

Actually Bant551, every team would would have to overcome the unimaginable academic hardship of playing football for at least one extra week because of the 9 game regular season schedule and the two division champions would play two more games than they do now.

Speedy, I suspect you're right as to why baseball set up their format the way they did (keeping Williams and Amherst in the same division). As a Trinity fan, I would actually prefer that split. Competing with Colby and Tufts for a shot at the title would seem to be much easier than battling it out with Williams, Amherst and Middlebury every year.

Does anyone think a football championship game would actually ever happen in the NESCAC... or does it just make too much sense?

[Knightstalker]

It will never happen because it defies the philosophy of the NESCAC.

[bant551]

Am I the only person here who had BETTER grades during the football season?

By extension, wouldn't it be beneficial for students like me to have a longer season?

[Pat Coleman]

Actually, bant551, that's not uncommon. We hear a lot of student-athletes saying that because the discpline of the season forces them to manage their time better.

[speedy]

Actually Bant551, every team would would have to overcome the unimaginable academic hardship of playing football for at least one extra week because of the 9 game regular season schedule and the two division champions would play two more games than they do now.
. . . .

I don't understand why the NESCAC could not simply start the season a week or two earlier. That's when many other D3 schools starts.

[Billsville]

re: Trinity vs. Colby:

I'd have to agree with the person who said Trinity would beat Colby pretty soundly. It may be true that Colby looks great right now, but Trinity is at a different level. From what I know from observing from afar, Trinity is better the any of the recent undefeated Williams or championship Amhert teams from recent years (meaning the last 10 years or so). I doubt that Colby is at that level - yet - in their first year emerging as a league power (if they end up with a great record at the end of the year).

This is completely untrue. Trinity looks so good because the entire nescac is significantly worse then it was during the late 90's when Keenan and Brooks were at Williams. The nescac is horrible compared even to 2002-3 era. This year's Trinity team is good but not on the level of those teams. Of the undefeated Trinity teams 03 was head and shoulders above the rest back when Carillo was playing and not coaching. They had a 1-AA  oline that year. The trick to getting Trinity to win was getting rid of that horrible qb Ward who stunk up the offense for years. I remember hearing coaches say that as long as Trinity played Ward we never had to worry about losing to them. On another note, beating Williams is really no feat this year. They have no offense which falls more on the Williams coaching then the greatness of Trinity's D. Also of this years Williams team maybe 1 player on the whole roster would have seen the field on the 2002 undefeated team. Finally, Colby does this from time to time. Back in 01 when they shared the title everyone thought they were going to be a power but what happend. They went right back to 4-4 because recruiting people to go to Maine is incredibly difficult. Coincedentally I think Stepka was playing in 01, he has to have been there for atleast 6 years now. I would put the spread on a Trinity Colby game around 2 scores for Trin.

[Jonny Utah]

Id say forget the championship game and just play 9 games and crown one champion based on that.....

and it was like pulling teeth to have the nescac actually post standings in the paper based on win-loss rankings.  I remember in the 1990s the boston globe had the nescac standings ALPHABETICALLY for crying out loud......Williams in last place with a 7-0 record was always funny to look at.

[bant551]

Billsville, I respectfully dissent.

I was at Trinity when Keenan was there.  He was a great player, no doubt.  Williams killed us, no doubt.  Every year I was there.  Trinity had pretty bad teams during Keenan's career.  I watched Trinity get killed by that great Amherst defense, and I watched Trinity's new defense play a few times, and it is my contention Trinity's defense didn't break the record because the NESCAC magically sucks a few years after Williams heroically was undefeated in a much more competitive league.

I think that the players in the league these days are probably bigger, stronger, faster, and more organized than they were back when Williams dominated everyone.

[saul]

the refrain of nescac football being a shadow of its former self is often heard around the amherst athletic dept. and friends of amherst football group. in recent years both amherst and williams tacitly de-emphasized football in response to pressure from alumni, faculty and even the student body. the departure of farley from the ephs only further hurt their program.

all the while that the jeffs and ephs dominated nescac play they remained as the top two rated colleges in nescac. now that's what nescac is all about. they definitely "did football right"  ( as the colonel might say ) unlike that utterly disgraceful, embarassment of an institution in hartford. people wouldn't  begrudge trinity its success if they were a highly rated nescac institution adhering to the same admissions standards as those schools ranked above it. trinity has leveraged its low ( the lowest ) standards of admissions into league dominance and that's what most nescac folks find so reprehensible. ask any coach in the country--- hell, go ask tara reid-- the most critical factor in building any football program and he'll say it's recruiting. and low admissions standards provide that edge. coaching, chiefly x and o's, helps but only really becomes a factor when there's league parity-- and there's no parity in nescac these past few years, so i'm not buying into the priore's- a-great- coach arguement. i could coach trinity to a nescac title this year, and I'm a freshman. priore maybe a gifted recruiter but compared to whom in nescac. how many fierce recruiting battles does he have to face each year against fellow nescac coaches? probably not many;  the bulk of trinity's team would be deemed inadmissible to other nescac schools so i'm not sure you can be tabbed a super recuiter if there's nobody who can compete against you.

as to the nine game format, that's previously been proposed by amherst and others but the presidents have been reluctant to add on to the front end of the season because of  concerns over liability-- namely, football players on campuses for longer periods while school is not in session: an invitation to mayhem in the eyes of some. the idea of adding the extra game to the end of the season was problematic because it's been argued that it hurts two-sport athletes from participating fully in pre-season stuff with their winter teams. sadly, there are now less two-sport athletes than in the past, still for schools like amherst, williams and midd the ability to offer a potential student-athlete considering going ivy the option of playing two sports has been an a recruiting advantage in the past, one they may not want to relinquish anytime soon. also, amherst and williams consider their entire seasons to revolve around their season-ending game--nescac's best rivalry-- so they really aren't interested in playing games after their annual contest.

given these scheduling constraints, the only option appears to play make the first scrimmage each team currently plays as the "nineth" game although most coaches feel they barely have adequate time to prep their teams as it is now. most of these games would surely be ugly, but it's probably the best way to accomodate a nine game schedule. with a nine game slate, playoffs become superfluous.       

[frank uible]

saul: Why don't you shut up and just play the games - or alternatively, should you choose, don't play the games - but at any rate shut up. You are embarassing yourself and the members of NESCAC.

[bant551]

Thats funny Saul, I was under the impression that Trinity had the same ranking as it did when I was being recruited (top 25 academically, but below the other NESCAC schools nevertheless), that it has now.  But somehow I also remember having one 5-3 seasons, followed by two 4-4 seasons.

In the 5-3 season, we needed a HUGE game from a freshman tight end who ended up transferring to UMASS in order to beat HAMILTON!  We just didn't have the players, despite our lower academic ranking. 

Why is Trinity so dominant now?  Well, for one thing, they are great recruiters.  Keep in mind that through working their tails off (and Trinity spends MUCH more time recruiting nationally than the other NESCAC schools), Trinity's coaches put themselves into a position to simply have more ACADEMICALLY QUALIFIED PLAYERS TO RECRUIT FROM!!!

Until someone here shows me some kind of evidence that Trinity has lowered its standards in recent years (you know, as opposed to doing a great job recruiting, putting in more hours, and generally out-coaching the opposition), there is no other explanation aside from jealousy.  Or maybe its wishful thinking.  Although I have never myself tried to come up with excuses when my team got creamed, maybe it feels good to complain about something.  That would have helped out alot my four years at Trinity when Williams beat us so badly every year.

[Jonny Utah]

bant, I believe everything you say but you cant really prove that Trinity "spends much more time recruiting nationally", or "put in more hours", or "generally outcoach the opposition".

[Knightstalker]

in the eyes of some. the idea of adding the extra game to the end of the season was problematic because it's been argued that it hurts two-sport athletes from participating fully in pre-season stuff with their winter teams.

Saul, if you are a student at Amherst as your post seems to imply, it would indicate that perhaps Amherst has relaxed its admission requirements.  How about some spacing and capitalization so that it is easier to follow your train of thought.

The arguement that extending the season would impact two sport athletes seems to only be used to justify limiting the football season.  I am sure that there are many NESCAC athletes who play winter sports that miss out on preseason activities in the spring sports they play, and possibly miss games especially in baseball and softball.  Maybe the NESCAC presidents realize that they can recruit a national power in basketball that will win championships and make the conference schools look even better but they can't compete with schools like Linfield, Mt. Union, Rowan etc on the championship level.  Try this, instead of regurgitating the party line about added games, talk to the players and ask them if they would like to play a school like Rowan or Muhlenberg or Johns Hopkins and participate in the post season, I am fairly sure the majority would.

Your attitude towards Trinity stinks of elitism and you probably refuse to believe that there are state colleges and universities that are just as good as any NESCAC school and have admission standards that are just as strict.  I also know for a fact that Amherst will relax their admission standards for the right price.  The younger brother of a friend was admitted to Amherst and graduated.  What makes this interesting is the kid is lazy, stupid (I mean really stupid, can't pour sand out of his shoe if the instructions were written on the heel stupid if you get the meaning) undisciplined and a malcontent.  Daddy (Amherst alum) just donated a little extra on top of tuition and sonny boy gets a diploma.  So don't go throwing dirt on another conference school until you know all your closets are clean.

[Billsville]

Team by team the whole Nescac is worse then in 2000 excluding Trinity. Midd used to be powerful and split the title in 01 and now after the younger Keenan left they are far below where they were. Williams I already covered but they are barely competitive anymore. Weslyen hasn't been any good since they beat Williams in the shootout against Keenan in 2000. Hamiton as bad as always. Tufts is way worse then 02 or 01 seasons. The Maine teams might have a good year this year but it will never last because you can't get people to go to Maine.

These cheap shots at Trinity are sad. They are recruiting and playing better then the rest of the league. The drop from 21 to 14 tips a year has hurt Williams and Amherst but they need to deal with it. Priorie has do a terrific job. I don't think very high of him as a person, adding his picture to the pictures of the football captians in the locker room hallways seems like a lowlife move, but you can't say anything about what he has done on the field.

[Trin9-0]

Utah: I agree there appear to be too many unsubstantialed claims on both sides of this discussion. The only thing that you can use to make an argument either way are the numbers:

U.S. News & World Report Liberal Arts College Rankings

2000                                                                     2006
2. Amherst                                                            1. Williams
3. Williams                                                             2. Amherst
5. Middlebury                                                         6. Bowdoin
9. Bowdoin                                                            8. Middlebury
10. Wesleyan                                                        12. Wesleyan
18. Colby                                                              15. Hamilton
18. Hamilton                                                          20. Colby
22. Trinity                                                             21. Bates
23. Bates                                                              25. Trinity

Since 2000 all of the NESCAC schools have remained in the top 25 nationally and have only raised or fallen 2 or 3 spots at the most. Also, within the league there has been very little change in the rankings. Williams and Amherst are the top 2. Middlebury, Bowdoin and Wesleyan are next. Colby and Hamilton are comparable, as are Trinity and Bates.

Saul: I find it convenient that Amherst and Williams suddenly stopped caring about football once Trinity started beating them. Your excuses, like your posts are pathetic.

According to your logic, shouldn't Bates and even Hamilton have been dominating the league the past 5 years? Because as everyone knows, anyone who doesn't go to Williams or Amherst is a savage who can barely right there own name, but who sure can play some football!

Are you upset that Trinity, despite droping 3 spots in the U.S. News & World Report rankings, is still in the NESCAC or is it Williams and Amherst losing by 3 touchdowns to Trinity over the past few years?

Billsville: You have a valid argument that the league may not be as strong, even as recently as 2003. However, Trinity isn't just winning their games, they are dominating. The Williams teams of the '90s or the '03 Trinity team may have had better individual players, but there has been no better TEAMS than the ones Trinity has fielded over the past few years. The numbers speak for themselves: 24 consecutive wins by an AVERAGE score of 33-6.

All NESCAC schools are great academic institutions. And all the teams are playing by the same rules. I won't say Trinity coaching staff is working harder than the other programs to find and recruit academically eligible candidates... but it does seem that they are better at it.