FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[iamhuge]

I'll take the bait. Over the last eleven seasons I have observed the Williams JV (comprised of varsity number 3 or 4 backups) annually play (usually or possibly always under scrimmage conditions) JV teams from out-of-conference colleges (Springfield, RPI, Union, Western New England, Dartmouth, perhaps others). The Williams JV in all cases has at least held its own and in a clear majority has prevailed. While none of these opponents with the possible exception of Dartmouth is of a Mount Union football quality (neither is any member of the Midwest Conference), these outcomes are indicative of how the Williams varsity might fare against respectable out-of-conference varsity opponents.

My son played his freshman year at F&M and transferred to Tufts last season, so he has the data to make a comparison.

[fulbakdad]

I'd like to hear what your son says.

Frank, I don't think comparing JV squads in scrimmages would be a good way of comparing.  I agree even observation alone is not even a good way to compare teams.  But till they can come out and play other teams it will always be suspect.

You can also see I didn't say the Midwest Conferance was a powerhouse.  Though I did get to watch Monmouth and Tanney, and Illinios College looked repectable with a very large roster too.  Then I watched Illinois get manhandled by the team they played in the playoffs this year. 

By obervation, I will say the Midwest conferance is a higher level of play than the NESCAC.....

[frank uible]

Like elsewhere, there are those on the Williams campus who, if they could have their way, would ban inter-collegiate football even though all the members of the Williams team were Phi Beta Kappa.

[amh63]

Fulbakdad.....and others.....I just have to say that everyone sees what they want to see and make generalizations that are often wrong when looking at the details.  I want to point out that before the conference was formed, Amherst played and beat teams such as Springfield, AIC, Coast Guard, etc.  In the 60's and 70's, there were a number of players from Amherst that played and started in the NFL.  On this year's team, there is a linebacker that transferred from Springfield college after his FY.  He led his team in tackles at Springfield College and was all league.  He made several all conference teams at Amherst.  Amherst graduated several years ago, a linebacker/defensive end that played and started for his Patriot League team....then transferred to Amherst.  I am sure that other conference schools had/have individuals transfer in from "higher-level" schools and done well in the class and on the field.  Thus, it is not easy to make judgements about "level of play" by watching a few games (?) or practices.

[Jonny Utah]

Fulbakdad.....and others.....I just have to say that everyone sees what they want to see and make generalizations that are often wrong when looking at the details.  I want to point out that before the conference was formed, Amherst played and beat teams such as Springfield, AIC, Coast Guard, etc.  In the 60's and 70's, there were a number of players from Amherst that played and started in the NFL.  On this year's team, there is a linebacker that transferred from Springfield college after his FY.  He led his team in tackles at Springfield College and was all league.  He made several all conference teams at Amherst.  Amherst graduated several years ago, a linebacker/defensive end that played and started for his Patriot League team....then transferred to Amherst.  I am sure that other conference schools had/have individuals transfer in from "higher-level" schools and done well in the class and on the field.  Thus, it is not easy to make judgements about "level of play" by watching a few games (?) or practices.

I think the bigger news here is that Amherst college accepted an SC transfer.

[dlippiel]

Fulbakdad.....and others.....I just have to say that everyone sees what they want to see and make generalizations that are often wrong when looking at the details.  I want to point out that before the conference was formed, Amherst played and beat teams such as Springfield, AIC, Coast Guard, etc.  In the 60's and 70's, there were a number of players from Amherst that played and started in the NFL.  On this year's team, there is a linebacker that transferred from Springfield college after his FY.  He led his team in tackles at Springfield College and was all league.  He made several all conference teams at Amherst.  Amherst graduated several years ago, a linebacker/defensive end that played and started for his Patriot League team....then transferred to Amherst.  I am sure that other conference schools had/have individuals transfer in from "higher-level" schools and done well in the class and on the field.  Thus, it is not easy to make judgements about "level of play" by watching a few games (?) or practices.

I think the bigger news here is that Amherst college accepted an SC transfer.

+k Utah, classic my friend!

[Pat Coleman]

Fulbakdad.....and others.....I just have to say that everyone sees what they want to see and make generalizations that are often wrong when looking at the details.  I want to point out that before the conference was formed, Amherst played and beat teams such as Springfield, AIC, Coast Guard, etc.  In the 60's and 70's, there were a number of players from Amherst that played and started in the NFL.  On this year's team, there is a linebacker that transferred from Springfield college after his FY.  He led his team in tackles at Springfield College and was all league.  He made several all conference teams at Amherst.  Amherst graduated several years ago, a linebacker/defensive end that played and started for his Patriot League team....then transferred to Amherst.  I am sure that other conference schools had/have individuals transfer in from "higher-level" schools and done well in the class and on the field.  Thus, it is not easy to make judgements about "level of play" by watching a few games (?) or practices.

We can't draw any even remotely meaningful conclusions from anything that happened more than about 6-8 years ago, let alone 40-50 years ago. It is pretty cool that Matt Pieterse went from averaging 8.4 tackles per game as a freshman at Springfield and averaged only one tackle less the next year at Amherst, but not sure we can build a big case around that.

Several all-conference teams? Were some of them in other sports? I do see he's one of the 14 first-teamers on defense from 2011.

[nescac1]

I would have loved to have seen what two NESCAC teams could have done nationally ... pick the best of the Priori-led Trinity teams that dominated NESCAC with simply nasty defenses in the first half of the last decade, or the best of the Farley-led Williams teams that dominated NESCAC in the early to mid 990's.  The 1994 Williams team, for example, included future NFL'er Ethan Brooks, who was arguably only the second-best player on that defense (after Bobby Walker), plus a host of other top-notch defenders who made scoring very difficult, and also featured two fantastic tailbacks, each of whom was able to wrack up dominating stats as a feature back.  I don't think any of the recent NESCAC teams have the kind of concentration of talent as those dominant Williams and Trinity squads, in part due to changes in NESCAC recruiting standards.  But I would like to think that a few of the old Trinity / Williams powerhouses could have gone through at least a few rounds in the playoffs, at least until they hit the big boys from the midwest. 

[SUADC]

But I would like to think that a few of the old Trinity / Williams powerhouses could have gone through at least a few rounds in the playoffs, at least until they hit the big boys from the midwest.

That's the story of many programs now, the first two rounds and then BLAME, big lineman out in the midwest show up...and I have to say the line play in the midwest is definitely on a different level than that of every other region, with the exception of some great lineman here and there in the other regions, it appears that teams from the midwest always seem to have a complete line (especially o-line.)

[amh63]

Pat Coleman....welcome to the discussion.  Your post illustrate that people see things differently..though I do not understand the point of your post wrt the discussion.  I will concede that the player from Springfield did not make a conference team in 2010.  He had only 55 total tackles that year in 8 games and was in the top 5.  He played well that year at a high level and Amherst lost two games in 2010.  In  2011, he had more tackles and was second on the team in total tackles and Amherst went 8-0.  His level of play, IMHO, was the same and he was rewarded when the team was rewarded for its undefeated season in 2011.  My error.
My posts are to point out that there are great players and hopefully great level of play in contests over the decades between teams that now make up the conference.  Union college was once part of the "CAC".  The game has changed and the players have changed over the years.  The games in the 60's were played with two-way players that were smaller in size, etc.  Today's players are overall much bigger on the line and play only one-way generally.  I remembered the years when Trinity dominated the conference.  One football parent stated that it was hard to win against Trinity when their offensive line averaged 300 lbs overall.  I believe that the level of play by the teams has not changed over the years by the conference teams.  The coaches teach and coach with the talent they have and the number and size of players they have on their teams...and the players play with the same heart.
  To close here, I watched a game at Tufts in the late 60's.  Amherst upset an undefeated Tufts team that the Boston papers rated number 1 in NE in whatever division we were in.  After the game, a number of sports writers wondered about some particular players on the Amherst team that played well that day.  The QB and the WR that some thought could be the best in the region, regardless of divisions.
They investigated and found out the the QB turned down scholarships to Iowa and Iowa State to come to Amherst.  The WR that starred that day, eventually started for the Dallas Cowboys and the Washington Redskins.

[lumbercat]

That WR was Jean Fugett, one of several pros to come from Amherst or Williams in the 60's and 70's.
Others were Doug Swift who payed several years as a LB with the Dolphins. Other pros included Jackie Maitland, Freddie Scott. There we others in the 80's like Scott Perry and some in the 90's but the overall number of NECAC players drafted or signed as free agents in the NFL seems to have dropped off since 2000.

I'l defer to Frank U as the Chairman of this Board for his input. It seems that todays NESCAC atheletes are not as much on the pro radar in the past 10 years as they may have been prior???

By the way Frank, our Glass Bowl discussion prompted me to do a little research of my own. While not listed in your sources as a Bowl game, newpapers of the time characterized it a Bowl. Headlines declared Bates as "the first Bowl team in the state of Maine". Following their undefeated year they were invited in late November to play Toledo in the Glass Bowl. They accepted "a bid" amid great fanfare and were sent off with a big parade through the streets of Lewiston where they were sent off on a 20 hour train trip. 
Another interesting fact was the fact that a regular season game was scheduled in Toledo 2 years later which may have been the first or only (?) night game palyed by a NECAC team. Bates was trounced by Toledo 42-0 in the rematch.
Another interesting fact was the Bates share of the "gate" from those 2 games was a big financial benefit benefit to the Athletic Program in those years much in the same way as the Bates games with Yale in the Yale Bowl in the 30's. The visiting revenue from the gate in those games was not a great amount of money by today's standards but with crowds of 50,000 at Yale they were profitable trips for the Bobcats and generated revenue for the school..... how times have changed.
Ancient history and useless trivia but interesting to look at the evolution of Football at these colleges to where it is today.

[river]

U Chicago and Wash U are football only members of the newly formed Southern Athletic Association (SAA). Members include Centre College (KY). University of the South (Sewanee, TN), Millsaps College (MS), Birmingham Southern (AL), Rhodes College, (TN), Hendrix College (AR), Berry College (GA). All of the schools are excellent academic institutions (although not quite at  NESCAC level). . . . .

I am not an alumnus or supporter of Sewanee, but thought the comment above deserved response.  I am sure that supporters of the SAA schools mentioned can present facts supporting the academic achievements of their institutions.  There is a misplaced belief on this board that no other similar institutions have reached the high academic levels found at NESCAC schools.  The belief is in part based on fact, and in part mainly on reputation.  From "About Sewanee" on the school's website:
"The university has had 26 Rhodes Scholars—a number that puts Sewanee in the top four nationally among American liberal arts colleges—as well as 27 NCAA Postgraduate Fellows, 42 Watson Fellows, and dozens of Fulbright Scholars, and has an acceptance rate to graduate and professional schools that far outpaces its peers."
In the same way, talk about the NESCAC's current football prowess is based mainly on past reputation.  Without playing the game against competition outside of the conference, NESCAC teams cannot credibly claim parity with competitive non-NESCAC DIII teams. 

[Shoreman]

I am a supporter of Sewanee. It's truly is an outstanding school, with a great history (both academically and in football). My point was that the SAA top to bottom does not have the academic reputation of the NESCAC. When Amherst & Williams are perennially at the top of liberal arts college rankings.  The addition of U Chicago and Wash U as affiliates certainly bolsters the conference on the academic side.

I don't know if Tufts could leave the NESCAC for football only, but the SAA would certainly be a great conference for the Jumbos to join.

Having seen several Sewanee games in recent years I think Tufts could compete against the lower level SAA teams, and would struggle with the Centre's and Millsaps.

[Pat Coleman]

Pat Coleman....welcome to the discussion.  Your post illustrate that people see things differently..though I do not understand the point of your post wrt the discussion.  ...
My posts are to point out that there are great players and hopefully great level of play in contests over the decades between teams that now make up the conference.

Your post immediately followed on and responded to a poster who tried to draw current comparisons between NESCAC teams and teams from other conferences. It seemed you were trying to make that type of comparison as well, using decades-old data.

Fulbakdad.....and others.....I just have to say that everyone sees what they want to see and make generalizations that are often wrong when looking at the details.  I want to point out that before the conference was formed, Amherst played and beat teams such as Springfield, AIC, Coast Guard, etc.  In the 60's and 70's, there were a number of players from Amherst that played and started in the NFL.  On this year's team, there is a linebacker that transferred from Springfield college after his FY.  He led his team in tackles at Springfield College and was all league.  He made several all conference teams at Amherst.  Amherst graduated several years ago, a linebacker/defensive end that played and started for his Patriot League team....then transferred to Amherst.  I am sure that other conference schools had/have individuals transfer in from "higher-level" schools and done well in the class and on the field.  Thus, it is not easy to make judgements about "level of play" by watching a few games (?) or practices.

If that's not the case, I apologize for misreading your post.

[lumbercat]

No word on Hamilton coach yet?
Heard there was a Cornell assistant rumored as a top candidate but nothing beyond that. Would think an announcement would be coming soon.
Amherst second team all conference DB drafted by the Red Sox. Another example of a fine 2 sport NESCAC athlete.