FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[watercow]

... At Amherst and Williams many top recruits choose them... .

Candidly, this is the key. Until the other NESCAC schools can get themselves to the point where top recruits are recruiting the schools -- and not the other way around -- they'll likely remain trying to catch up with Amherst and Williams. As it stands, it's a structural advantage that is awfully difficult to overcome.

[frank uible]

On the other hand, it is likewise a structural disadvantage to Amherst and Williams that they are fishing at a self-imposed smaller potential applicant pool than the rest of NESCAC.

[watercow]

On the other hand, it is likewise a structural disadvantage to Amherst and Williams that they are fishing at a self-imposed smaller potential applicant pool than the rest of NESCAC.

Yes, fair point, Frank.

[Pat Coleman]

On the other hand, it is likewise a structural disadvantage to Amherst and Williams that they are fishing at a self-imposed smaller potential applicant pool than the rest of NESCAC.

Yes, fair point, Frank.

Not unlike many schools in many conferences. Heck, even the state school leagues have some schools with higher academic standards than the others (TCNJ, UW-Eau Claire).

[lumbercat]

Given the esteemed national reputation of Amherst and Williams they have a significantly higher recognition level nationwide which opens up a larger national pool of top student athletes that other NESCAC schools cannot reach or would have difficulty recruiting.

Like Harvard and Yale in the Ivies they can recruit nationally more efficiently than less prestigious schools in their conference- this broadens their applicant pool.

Harvard, Yale--Williams, Amherst easier sells than Columbia, Brown--Hamilton, Colby with no slight on any of the aforementioned schools which are all great colleges.

[frank uible]

Are Amherst's and Williams' applicant pools broadened more by those colleges' reputations than those pools are shrunk by the greater strictures of those colleges' Admissions Offices? Only a very few NESCAC football wonks might care about this question or its possible answers!

[met_fan]

New OC at Hamilton - Ryan Anderson from WNEC

[watercow]

Are Amherst's and Williams' applicant pools broadened more by those colleges' reputations than those pools are shrunk by the greater strictures of those colleges' Admissions Offices? Only a very few NESCAC football wonks might care about this question or its possible answers!

While I can only aspire to NESCAC football "wonk-dom," insofar as Frank frames an interesting question I guess I'll bite. My take (read: guess) is that in football (along with basketball, hockey, and maybe lacrosse), notwithstanding the broader recruit/applicant pool owing to school reputation, admissions standards at Amherst and Williams impose, on net, a smaller functional recruit pool. In pretty much all other sports, however, notably soccer, field hockey, swimming, track (x-c), tennis, baseball, etc., I think it's manifestly clear that the academic reputations of Amherst/Williams dramatically increases the functional recruit pools, despite the higher admissions bar (or, actually, because of the stringent admissions standards). The pool of competitive athletes in these sports that don't require any admissions accommodations and drawn to schools like Amherst and Williams continues to astonish me. Williams' run (though now broken) of Directors Cups is Exhibit A.

[met_fan]

Are Amherst's and Williams' applicant pools broadened more by those colleges' reputations than those pools are shrunk by the greater strictures of those colleges' Admissions Offices? Only a very few NESCAC football wonks might care about this question or its possible answers!

While I can only aspire to NESCAC football "wonk-dom," insofar as Frank frames an interesting question I guess I'll bite. My take (read: guess) is that in football (along with basketball, hockey, and maybe lacrosse), notwithstanding the broader recruit/applicant pool owing to school reputation, admissions standards at Amherst and Williams impose, on net, a smaller functional recruit pool. In pretty much all other sports, however, notably soccer, field hockey, swimming, track (x-c), tennis, baseball, etc., I think it's manifestly clear that the academic reputations of Amherst/Williams dramatically increases the functional recruit pools, despite the higher admissions bar (or, actually, because of the stringent admissions standards). The pool of competitive athletes in these sports that don't require any admissions accommodations and drawn to schools like Amherst and Williams continues to astonish me. Williams' run (though now broken) of Directors Cups is Exhibit A.

Whatever the size of the recruiting pool, I think it's pretty evident that Amherst and Williams do not struggle to pull in talent in football and basketball.  My guess is that at any time, if Amherst were to decide that they were not competing at a high enough level to their liking, they could turn whatever sport or program was struggling into a NESCAC (or D3) leader in no time.  Whatever the self-imposed recruiting/admissions limitations relative to other NESCAC schools are, Amherst is going to draw from such a wide area and carry such a strong reputation that they're usually going to have a leg up on most of their competition.  I would think this same dynamic occurs, to some degree, in almost every conference in the country.

[met_fan]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not criticizing the rankings - I am just curious.  In the kickoff special (I apologize if I shouldn't mention this stuff, because it's not part of the free site), Hamilton is predicted to finish 3-5, ahead of three other teams in the conference.  However, when ranking the teams throughout the nation from 1-239, Hamilton comes in at 228, 28 spots lower than any other team in the NESCAC, and 60 spots lower than the team they are placed one spot ahead of in the conference preview.  Again, I'm not disputing that Hamilton might well be the 228th-best team in D3, but I'm curious as to what kind of process results in the kind of discrepancy I noted above.

[frank uible]

Thank you, fellow wonks. We certainly value your weighty views and look forward to receiving your votes in November.

[iamhuge]

Are Amherst's and Williams' applicant pools broadened more by those colleges' reputations than those pools are shrunk by the greater strictures of those colleges' Admissions Offices? Only a very few NESCAC football wonks might care about this question or its possible answers!

Clearly there are superior athletes who will be enamored by the academic rep of Amherst / Williams.  The other NESCACS will not get these specific kids.  Now does that mean you can't win without these kids?...probably not.  Obviously these are a handful of kids and not 30 or 40 otherwise the games would not be competitive at all. 

[iamhuge]

Are Amherst's and Williams' applicant pools broadened more by those colleges' reputations than those pools are shrunk by the greater strictures of those colleges' Admissions Offices? Only a very few NESCAC football wonks might care about this question or its possible answers!

While I can only aspire to NESCAC football "wonk-dom," insofar as Frank frames an interesting question I guess I'll bite. My take (read: guess) is that in football (along with basketball, hockey, and maybe lacrosse), notwithstanding the broader recruit/applicant pool owing to school reputation, admissions standards at Amherst and Williams impose, on net, a smaller functional recruit pool. In pretty much all other sports, however, notably soccer, field hockey, swimming, track (x-c), tennis, baseball, etc., I think it's manifestly clear that the academic reputations of Amherst/Williams dramatically increases the functional recruit pools, despite the higher admissions bar (or, actually, because of the stringent admissions standards). The pool of competitive athletes in these sports that don't require any admissions accommodations and drawn to schools like Amherst and Williams continues to astonish me. Williams' run (though now broken) of Directors Cups is Exhibit A.

Whatever the size of the recruiting pool, I think it's pretty evident that Amherst and Williams do not struggle to pull in talent in football and basketball.  My guess is that at any time, if Amherst were to decide that they were not competing at a high enough level to their liking, they could turn whatever sport or program was struggling into a NESCAC (or D3) leader in no time.  Whatever the self-imposed recruiting/admissions limitations relative to other NESCAC schools are, Amherst is going to draw from such a wide area and carry such a strong reputation that they're usually going to have a leg up on most of their competition.  I would think this same dynamic occurs, to some degree, in almost every conference in the country.

I think as long as it's important to the alumni that Amherst beat Williams and vice versa, these teams will always continue to admit great athletes to their teams. 

I think Trinity does a remarkable job in that sports is embedded in their college culture ergo they also are encouraged to field a superior team.  When my son was recruited by Trinity, the coach there said that one of the reasons kids should want to go there is that they are going to go at least 7-1 every year.  Not a bad proposition.

This doesn't mean that the other 7 teams won't have something to say in the matter.  They are all excellent schools and programs.

[Pat Coleman]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not criticizing the rankings - I am just curious.  In the kickoff special (I apologize if I shouldn't mention this stuff, because it's not part of the free site), Hamilton is predicted to finish 3-5, ahead of three other teams in the conference.  However, when ranking the teams throughout the nation from 1-239, Hamilton comes in at 228, 28 spots lower than any other team in the NESCAC, and 60 spots lower than the team they are placed one spot ahead of in the conference preview.  Again, I'm not disputing that Hamilton might well be the 228th-best team in D3, but I'm curious as to what kind of process results in the kind of discrepancy I noted above.

That's the sort of thing that if we had had more time with the NESCAC copy (it was the last to come in) then we might have changed one of those or the other.

[river]

Are Amherst's and Williams' applicant pools broadened more by those colleges' reputations than those pools are shrunk by the greater strictures of those colleges' Admissions Offices? Only a very few NESCAC football wonks might care about this question or its possible answers!

While I can only aspire to NESCAC football "wonk-dom," insofar as Frank frames an interesting question I guess I'll bite. My take (read: guess) is that in football (along with basketball, hockey, and maybe lacrosse), notwithstanding the broader recruit/applicant pool owing to school reputation, admissions standards at Amherst and Williams impose, on net, a smaller functional recruit pool. In pretty much all other sports, however, notably soccer, field hockey, swimming, track (x-c), tennis, baseball, etc., I think it's manifestly clear that the academic reputations of Amherst/Williams dramatically increases the functional recruit pools, despite the higher admissions bar (or, actually, because of the stringent admissions standards). The pool of competitive athletes in these sports that don't require any admissions accommodations and drawn to schools like Amherst and Williams continues to astonish me. Williams' run (though now broken) of Directors Cups is Exhibit A.

Whatever the size of the recruiting pool, I think it's pretty evident that Amherst and Williams do not struggle to pull in talent in football and basketball.  My guess is that at any time, if Amherst were to decide that they were not competing at a high enough level to their liking, they could turn whatever sport or program was struggling into a NESCAC (or D3) leader in no time.  Whatever the self-imposed recruiting/admissions limitations relative to other NESCAC schools are, Amherst is going to draw from such a wide area and carry such a strong reputation that they're usually going to have a leg up on most of their competition.  I would think this same dynamic occurs, to some degree, in almost every conference in the country.

Perhaps one reason for the NESCAC to be so adamantly opposed to football beyond the limits of its small harbor is that the schools with the greatest reputation and resources (Amherst and Williams??) would inevitably get the lion's share of wins and further glorify their reputations, while the other relatively poverty stricken  NESCAC schools would be unable to compete in recruiting a core group of 40-50 top flight D3 football athletes without the same level of resources.  Therefore, why even bother.  From the standpoint of Amherst or Williams, even with their enormous resources and reputations, it would be debatable whether they could realistically aspire to consistent winning football at the national level.   Therefore, why even bother.