FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[lumbercat]

Frank-
Don't forget Scott Perry--from Williams and Cinncinati Bengals....a legit sub 4.4. 40........... was said to have had two 40 yard races with 2 time Heisman winner Archie Griffin....... by all accounts Perry beat him both times. Perry had an extended career in the NFL but I won't make a call on duration. As far as I'm concerned it's a great acheivement for any NESCAC player to make an NFL roster. Swift, who may have had a shorter career than others who wore purple was a part of the Super Bowl team in Miami and thus is certainly one of the most recognizable NESCAC- NFL alums.

[lumbercat]

Other NESCAC NFL Alums from the 1970's and 1080's-

Dick Leavitt OT/LS Bowdoin NY  Giants 1978- 1979

Tommy Burhoe TE Bates-  Patriots '78- Giants '79

Steve McCabe OT Bowdoin- Redskins '78

Rico Corsetti LB Bates- Patriots '87-Dolphins '88

[lumbercat]

Frankie - I'm losing it--I forgot Jackie Maitland, one of the great Ephs of all time----Baltimore Colts, a fine Williams player who played for Shula's Colts with Unitas.
I wonder how the Purple and Gold of Williams fared against the Mighty Jeffs during Maitland's tenure in Willimastown, would think the Ephs may have been dominated by Amherst in those days, but I will have to check the record.         

[frank uible]

Maitland and Perry each played fewer years in the NFL than Swift.

[frank uible]

P.S. A Perry-Griffin 40 yard foot race would have been no contest. Perry was an about 4.35/40, Griffin an about 4.50/40.

[Knightstalker]

am63, Doug Swift retired when the Dolphins made him eligible in the 76 expansion draft, he was one of the starting outside linebackers along with Mike Kolen, Nick Buoniconti was the starting middle linebacker.  Bob Matheson #53 would come in as the 4th linebacker when they went to the 3-4 aka 53 defense and usually Bob Heinz would come out and Manny Fernandez would move to the nose.  I love the Dolphins which is probably why I am filled with so much worthless Dolphin knowledge.  Lumbercat, my comment about Coach Darp and Shula and Swift was because Doug Swift was such a good player that he took another Amherst player based on that.

[frank uible]

Arguably Ostendarp is D3'a all time best recruiter - witness Swift, Clancy, Fugett, Scott. However it is relatively easy to recruit certain scholar-athletes if one offers an Amherst education.

[nescac1]

Not-so-bold prediction: former Middlebury and current Seahawks placekicker Steve Hauschka will end up having the longest NFL career for any NESCAC player. 

[lumbercat]

Frank-
The race between Perry and Archie Griffin did take place...twice. Perry beat him once and there was rematch that Perry also won easily. Perry was quoted as saying he never really had to really let it all out.
Think Griffin was a little quicker than 4.5 however.

[amh63]

Thanks all you posters for the memories!...and corrections to mine.  It is mid-week, finally sunny outside and I have some football trivial  to add to the early season topics discussed to date....squad size, size of players and even uniforms.  These are based on my recent reading of OLD game programs....back to the mid 80's of "Little Three" contests and the daily reading of two major newspapers.  You guessed it...I have a great deal of time on my hands.  Anyway, here goes...
Size of football players.....from the WSJ article of the new NFL uniforms from Nike. ( Seems the new tight uniforms have raised concerns among the players.)  The 1966 Green Bay Packers did not feature  an offensive lineman heavier than 250 pounds.  Today, the Packers five OL starters weigh in an average of 312.8 lbs!  In the 1984 and 85  game programs....there were few players over 230....240 tops for linemen for both the Amherst and Williams' players.  Most players were around 215 lbs on the line.  Today...the Amherst starting OL averages around 275 lbs or more.  I blame the big linemen race on the great Trinity teams....and William teams of the past....big smile here.
Size of football squads- NESCAC squads are limited to 75.  The Ivy teams are not much more than that....at least the traveling squads.
The Div.1 teams, or whatever they are called today are limited to 85 scholarship players.  There was an article about the AD of Nebraska retiring...the former coach and even politician Osbourne.  In the days when Nebraska was known to produce NFL linemen, the teams had 120-`130 scholarship players.  I recalled stories that the Nebraska coach would recruit linemen to "stash" them so that they would mature....even recruiting lineman players just to keep them away from conference rivals.  Oh yes, the football squads on the Amherst AND Williams teams were under 70 players and did not reach over 75 until the late 1990's.
You were most correct Frank....there were great "CAC" players in the old days and even today, that could play...all "undersize" by today's standards.
Uniforms...I do not really think they matter among the players....many it is more important to the fans.  Should have a brief discussion about the best  uniforms in the conference.
Oh yes...the "CAC" season is a quarter finished.  The big boys schools have played 4 games to date (most of them) which means that they are a THIRD of the way through their season....of course we are talking regular season.  We start later and finish sooner.   

[lumbercat]

Ostendarps NFL background and connections were of great help in his recruiting efforts at Amherst.
One player that comes to mind is Bill Swiacki the son of Bill Swiacki Sr who played for the Giants with Darp.
Swiacki Jr was a great 6'7'' tight end for the Jeffs.  All New England, Little All American etc. Drafted in the 8th or 9th round in 1978 by, guess who?   The N Y Football Giants.
Chose to sign with the LA Dodgers instead.

There were some quality players in the league in those years. More NESCAC players seemed to have pro opportunities. I never forgot a quote from then Patriots asst GM and scout Jim Valek who said the 2 best Tight Ends in New England football were on the field together in the Amherst- Bates game in fall '77. Tom Burhoe 6'6" of Bates was signed as a free agent by the Patriots that year.
Meaningless, ancient trivia but it seems to support the fact that while the NESCAC of today seems better overall we don't see as much interest in current NESCAC players from the professional ranks.

[banfan]

Is there anything about how nescac football is conducted that would lead anyone to believe that potential pro football players are to be found here?

My son is a starting DE as a soph on the best (imho) D in conference.  He was not given any encouragement from schools like Holy Cross, Colgate, Georgetown or Dartmouth.  Now could he have gone there without football help and still played? I think so but I am his Dad.

Those are pretty good FCS or 1AA teams and how many NFL players come out of those schools?  Not many.  There are sooooo many D1 schools with big programs now and they play 12 regular season games and about 60 of them play in a bowl.  They play more in two years than a lot of our kids play in four.  It is a full time job for those kids and many if not most do it for 5 years.

My son wanted to go d3 and nescac so he would have an off season.  And obviously get a good education.  He did visit Case Western and, I am glad, chose to stay near home but they play 10 games and are often in the ncaa playoffs.

All I am saying is that the landscape has changed and the pros don't look our way because of the numbers.

[amh63]

Times have changed and scouting of NFL potential players may have changed.  I was led to believe that in pro football, if you had the right talent....size, smarts, speed, etc.....the NFL will find you and give you a chance.
Banfan....you mention exposure and to some others here there is the desire factor.  One does not play in the "CAC"  or in D3 to take a path to the NFL, in general...or even in the Patriot or IVY leagues.  Less exposure to the scouts can be expected.  Yet it happens.  Take the case of the Harvard grad playing QB for the Bills.  No post season exposure there.  I think it is luck/fate or whatever more so.
Examples that I am aware of...at Amherst.  First, one of the pro players, Freddie Scott who holds most of Amherst receiving records, was basically a walk-on from Arkansas.  He went on to play for the Detroit Lions, was even MVP for the Lions.  He was elected to the College Hall of Fame this decade.  Freddie had a son who was a Div.1 football player.  Did not want to come to Amherst and went to play for Penn State.  He left Penn State early to try out for the NFL after several good years there.  I do not believe he made it.
Another NFL pro player at Amherst, Jean Fugett came out of Baltimore.  He had size and speed to play TE in football and forward in BB at Amherst.  Jean was a "walk-on" to the Dallas training camp.  His work-out there made a first round draft choice come to camp.  Jean went on to play for the Redskins.  He is a lawyer and a businessman.  He and his half brother's family tried to buy the Baltimore MLB team when it went on the market.  Jean has a son that is 6'5" and about 230 in college.  His son received a scholarship to U. of Cinn. to play TE/receiver.  He was redshirted there.  Jean's son transferred to Amherst.  He hopped to play along side a relative on the football team and like his father, play on a fine Amherst basketball team.  He had rules that his grades/studies came first before sports.  Jean's son who had the talent,was all state in football and all city in  BB, never played any sports at Amherst.  He had injuries to his back/spine that did not allowed him to play, even after surgery.  His son had a way to the pros via his father but it never happened.  Jean's son graduated from Amherst on schedule and supported his "teams" in other ways while in school.  That is how I remembered it.

[FourMoreYears]

According to my son, Troy Pappas '16 Bates passed away today. 

Thoughts and prayers to the Bates football program, Troy's friends and most importantly his family and parents.  As the parent of three boys (ages 16-21), I can't even imagine. 

Let this sad event put everything into perspective ... it may be fun to follow football ... fun to predict the games ... fun to analyze the results ... fun to gloat a little (or a lot) when your team wins ... but it isn't what is truly important. 

[dlippiel]

Dlip sends his condolences and prayers to the Pappas family.