FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[amh63]

Bringing in "diversity" factors is getting into areas that one should not go,imo.  Are you saying that public school students, lower economic students, international students and students of color are not football/sport fans?  Of course they are and they will support their classmates.  I agree that conflicting contests can reduce students at games.  Last week, Amherst listed 200 plus in attendance at the men's soccer game that also started at 1 PM....the women's soccer game started at 12 noon with at least 100 in attendance.  There were tennis games away and cross country races, etc.  Remember Amherst has at most 1800 students....remember there are students abroad.
Still there is the question of attendance numbers in general.  I have seen soccer numbers listed at 20 when the video showed more. 
The football numbers are always off and are just a guess at a particular time.  Since the policy of no tickets/cost to go to the games, the numbers may just reflect the number of programs sold.
Frank....nice of you to bring the quote from "DARP"....I recall it when TV coverage was first brought up at Amherst.  "Darp" did not want the TV coverage to dictate the start of the game, the flow of the game and how viewers would misinterpret such games at Amherst....where dogs run across the field at half-time and young kids running around and catching footballs around tailgates.  It is a game for the followers of "CAC".  Often, people look for friends and chat and maybe at times watch the game on the field....in short more low-key.  Of course the families of the players are more intense, etc. 
Going to snap shots of winter games, one sees basketball players yelling at hockey games; soccer players cheering for basketball players.  It is stated that about one third of the students are involved in varsity sports at Amherst.  Many have friends and room mates that do not participate at that level.   I will relate a story to illustrate the above point.  A number of years ago, at Homecoming, I attended a music event on Friday with friends.  I noticed in front of me a former football player who had played in the NFL who was in attendance with his family.  He was watching his son play on stage.  After the event at the reception, I noticed that the son was being congratulated by a cluster of his friends.  It turned out that many of them were teammates on the baseball team.  Oh yes, I talked to some of them and they were NOT aware that the "son" had a father that was a football star at Amherst.

[frank uible]

There is much left prudently uncorrected hereabouts, nonetheless it should be noted that Williamstown's rough population number of 8000 includes approximately 2000 Williams students.  We Williamstownies like to avoid being misjudged.

[gridiron]

Took a look at the rosters for all NESCAC football teams for 2012.  Breakdown by class follows.  In an attempt to get a sense for older versus younger teams, teams are ranked by total of juniors and seniors on the roster.  Appears to be a rough correlation to success on the field thus far (with the exception of Tufts).

2012   Fr   So   Jr   Sr   Total
Williams   21   18   19   17   75
Middlebury   24   20   11   21   76
Amherst   24   21   17   14   76
Trinity   22   24   15   15   76
Tufts   26   20   13   17   76
Bowdoin   27   22   14   13   76
Bates   21   23   12   14   70
Wesleyan   23   29   13   11   76
Colby   28   20   8   14   70
Hamilton   29   19   5   11   64
Avg   24.5   21.6   12.7   14.7   73.5

[gridiron]

And with the exception of Wesleyan in the other direction.

[amh63]

Nice story on the NESCAC website dealing with a Wes. football player taking time out to help a cancer patient.  Mr. Long a junior TE from VT gave some bone marrow.  Seems he will be back for the Amherst-Wes. game on Sat.

[lumbercat]

Gridiron-

Thats an interesting breakdown of the classes among programs in the conference - appreciate the time you took in posting it.

I will post some information that we compile in our work with NESCAC recruiting--our numbers may be a little different that yours as our information was gathered from each school on the Wedneday before the season opening game. We do some different calculations but maybe some followers of the board will have some interest--to others this may be trivial.



These numbers are a measurement of 3 three profiles--

1.-Total Roster size
2.- Number or non-returning underclassmen (quit football, did not return to program)
3. Number of incoming freshmen

The number that we feel is significant over the years in analyzing the plight of NESCAC programs is the number of non-returning underclassmen. This number includes those who quit or were cut from a program. It has been a great indicator of programs in transition. Over the years there is a high correalation of non-returning underclassmen within losing programs however in some cases a high number here indicates cuts of returning players who may be replaced by transfers or fifth year players. (Trinity/Wesleyan)

Middlebury- 73   9    24
Colby-         64   13  26
Bowdoin-     74   11  27
Hamilton-    64   18  31
Bates-         73    8   22
Wesleyan-   79   15  29
Tufts-         76   14  26
Trinity-       81    9   21

We do not track the elite two, Amherst and Williams, as their recruiting practices and profile is not consistent with other NESCAC schools.

[PistachioX]

Interesting, Lumbercat.

Pardon me if I missed it in a prior post, but who is the "we," to whom you refer, above?

[gridiron]

Good stuff, Lumbercat.  I simply took the numbers from rosters from the various team websites as of this week. 

Do you have any sense for how many transfers and/or fifth year players Trinity and Wesleyan typically have or currently have?

[lumbercat]

The transfer number is obviously never reported officially by the NESCAC schools. Information on athlete transfers is based on limited press releases and information obtained in speaking with those involved in the programs. It is unofficial.
This year there appears to be no incoming transfers to the Trinity program though they have had activity here in past years which for the most part, has been well above other NESCAC schools.
It appears that Weleyan added at least 2 transfers this year.
Keep in mind the NESCAC can be difficult to track. Kids quit or leave programs somewhat frequently. Others can go on a year of overseas study and return to a program the next year. While this activity goes on in many conferences it's difficult to track in the NESCAC because there is no reporting of these changes. Thus rosters, changes and recruiting information in general is always an elusive target.

[gridiron]

Your explanation makes sense as to why it is difficult to track transfers and fifth year players.  Impressed with your expertise/insight on NESCAC football.

On a different topic I was having a discussion regarding the number of recruiting slots each school has for football.  Seems some think 16 while others say 14.  I'm wondering if you know which is correct, or if it varies year to year.

[lumbercat]

I'm no expert but have followed it pretty closely for a number of years. A guy like Frank Uible probably has the most working knowledge of the nuances within NESCAC athletics as anyone I have encountered.
I believe slots slots vary from school to school and from sport to sport but would say that 14 seems to be a representative average for football based on my travels. I cannot define the specifics by school and do not know anyone who can.

An interesting aspect of the whole system is the treatment of athletes who may fall in 'minority' status. The whole thing gets a little dicey but essentially there can be exceptions to the number of TIPS that are slotted or allowed. In some cases a school can admit a student athlete who would normally need to be considered a slotted recruit without using one of their slots or TIPS if the recruit qualifies as a minority.
Despite alot of public speculation over the years most of the inner workings of NESCAC athletics are pretty closely guarded, by design.

[gridiron]

I found it interesting to learn in my travels that legacy athletes are treated the same way as minority athletes at the NESCAC school for which they are a legacy--no slots/tips need be used, provided the athlete fits into any one of the bands.

[lumbercat]

This board is significantly quieter than it has been in recent years and I attribute that to the lackluster performances of Amherst and Williams so far this year. Jeff and Efs followers have always dominated this board and have made it go, I appreciate that.

However when the "Collective Purple" are slumping the whole board deteriorates. Back in the day,  Thursdays and Fridays of game week would have the board bustling with predictions, point spreads etc, it was a lot of fun but this year it's dead.

Geez, you would think one of the "Collective Purple" was demoted from the top 2 slots in the US News and World Report College ratings.......C'mon Purple you'll recover especially after a total of 25 mil is laid out for those new stadiums.....your current pain is only temporary.

Get back into into it guys!  "The Game" still lies ahead and you Jeffs still have a shot with a bit of a challenge down in Hartford with the Bantams.

I'll try and be the guy again this week that tries to stir up some interest in the Board.  I thought the articulate Banfan may carry the ball a few weeks ago on posting the spreads but he may have been preoccupied with his northward migration to the Greater Portland area.

So here goes....I'll try another approach this week at risk of looking really bad but here goes....

Hers are my predictions this week.... with scores.  Always interested on where you guys stand on the games with overall board interest on thoughts, opinions or general laughter welcome at my picks anytime before Saturday at 1:00.

Trinity 31 Bowdoin 6- Bantams cruise at Iconic Whittier field- it'll be in the 60's so no one will care who is in the shade in this great setting...... R. J. Shea where are you, I think you still have a year of eligability left. 6'5" and you could throw it.....what happened? Bunker, Crick and underated weapon Budness again will romp--thye love to dump the little swing to #34.

Williams 35 Tufts 27- Ephs can't lose again but for God sakes play Wolwender. Tufts will have some success in the air at home with Haas and their big tight end.  QB Dodds can sling it but it won't be enough. If  Ephs all world #1 Hartwell is hurt put him out there as a decoy, he'll still command double coverage.

Hamilton 19 Colby 17- Hopsicker has a fine future but this pick is based on Eck staring and running the Continental O. Colby Freshmen Ciero will be the best QB in the conference over the next few years. Continentals hope he doesn't bloom on Saturday after a rough outing last week but he's only a freshman.....will be anothe Kmetz but not sure I should say that.

Bates 34 Middlebury 31-Upset special---- Foote never turns it over....until Saturday. Bates can move it on the ground with their dominating O line. If they can throw it as effectively as last week they may catch Panthers looking toward Trinity.
Foote will be courted by the NFL before he's done and Chapman still one of the greats in the league despite all the swooning over Hartwell this year but heres saying that Hartwell has injury woes which are well concealed by Ephs.

Wesleyan 27 Amherst 21- Whelans on a tear. Drew went half speed last week with an injury and had to come out. Hamstrings and sprinters .....always a problem. Sub Gibson is a glider with deceptive speed. Jeffs always tough but this Cardinal team is well coached despite some very questionable decisions to throw the ball las week at Bates when then could have kept it on the ground and avoided late game heroics by a ball hawking Bates D.

[amh63]

Lumbercat.......thanks for the pep talk and the info you have posted.  You should drop down when the purple clouds meet in November....to see the third oldest football field as it is for the last time.  Mean while, I will take up some challenges.  Williams will lose again at Amherst and on Sat. the Cardinals will go down in a close game.  Amherst's defense, even without Pieterese playing will hold the running game of the red and black down again.  It really is whether Amherst can get its offense going, in particular its passing attack.  Silvia is listed to start.  Special teams are the key to this game, imo.   Will be in attendance at the oldest football field in the land on Sat. 
Oh yes, Amherst should win all the contests on Sat with the Cardinals.....two soccer games and a field hockey games.  In the old days, when "CAC" schools meet, all fall sports were on hand.  Sat it will be one of the rare cases among the "Little Three".
Smiled when you called the Ephs...something else in error.

[deleted blank lines/pc]

[gridiron]

Ok, Lumbercat.  I like it.  Some Week 5 predictions to keep the NESCAC football buzz going.

Trinity 38 Bowdoin 12; No stopping Trinity until the Middlebury game (maybe)
Williams 24 Tufts 7; Although Williams has been a bit down so far this year, they get it together this week
Colby 24 Hamilton 14; With the most difficult NESCAC schedule so far this season Colby will finally get their elusive W
Middlebury 32 Bates 13; Middlebuy's size will be too much for all opponents until they face the Bantams
Amherst 24 Wesleyan 17; Amherst's strong defense will be too much for the Cardinals who have thus far made the most out of their favorable schedule

Anyone else???