FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[amh63]

The Fenway Park night football topic with the recent posts has become too hard for me to resist.
To answer Jonny U. Suggestion of a Harvard-Yale game first....
Location and lights.... Harvard' s fine present stadium holds over 30,000 fans and has a turf field and lights.  The first ivy night game was with Brown in 2007.  It has better parking space and there are no costs to convert to football.  In 1970,  the Boston Patriots paid to play there before they had to move to the BU stadium after being kicked out by Harvard...who did not need the money.
Attendance...having attended Ivy games, the schools do not play to capacity crowds.  In particular, Yale does not travel well...attended several away games recently.  In the sixties, it was well noted that Harvard had low attendance except for two games...with Yale and with Dartmouth. Thie last time a Harvard-Yale game filled the stadium was the legendary 1968 ..29-29 tie game that Harvard "won".
I was living in Cambridge at the time and tried hard to get a ticket.  Tickets were being sold by students to alums...in NY's Yale club, it was reported that tickets cost 1000 dollars..by the Times.  I supported Harvard since my brother is a Harvard man twice over, but I did not have the cash.  Harvard even thought about adding 10,000 steel seats again to meet ticket demands.  Why?   Both teams were coming in at 6-0 and 8-0 overall.  Harvard had Tommy lee jones and V. Gato and Yale had B. Dowling and Calvin Hill (father of Grant Hill of Duke and NBA fame).
Therefore, there is no rational reason for Harvard to play Yale in Fenway at night.   As, for Amherst vs Williams, Frank's reasons are correct.  Amherst's legendary Coach "DARP" turned down an offer for a televised game once...stating that Amherst games were for the Amherst community and the public would not understand seeing dogs and young kids running around...paraphrasing a bit here.  Both schools can play on turf fields with lights and new grandstands by '14. Maybe, crowds will reach 14,000 plus if both teams come in undefeated!
Frank U.....what was the attendance at the Mud Bowl in Williiamstown when Amherst stopped an undefeated Williams team 0-0...a game covered by the NYT for four days with featured stories...and thought Amherst won

[Pat Coleman]

Outside of Williams/Amherst students and alums and close friends and family of those students and alums, almost no one is sufficiently interested to actually attend the game, and furthermore many of that group of attendees would be much disinclined to attend at a locale other than one or the other of the two campuses.

I know you take the dim view of almost everything, but either your bolded statement is incorrect or the attendance figures are.

[AlDavis]

....apologize to create such a stir with the word of a possible Amherst - Williams game being considered to be staged at Fenway Park , as I was just asking the board as we where told just last Year at the Williams Football Camp by two Wiiliams coaches of such a possibility....as far as Mr Amherst talking of 14,000 attendance that's awesome but there will be no undefeated  Amherst- Williams matchup in the near future with of course Trinity around , Middlebury recruiting hard and an uprising of Wesleyan , and the now yearly Bitch-Slapping that Bates gives Williams.

[frank uible]

Pat: The attendance at the typical Williams/Amherst game is about 8000 to 12,000 and is comprised almost exclusively of students, alums and close friends and family of students and alums.

[amh63]

Don't forget the kids. this past Amherst-Williams game at Pratt Field had listed attendance of about 10500, not counting pets....with stands having a 8000 capacity.  Typically, with the tents and tailgating....there could half as much again.  Half the time about half of the fans watch the game.  My wife hardly ever watch...sitting with friends chatting about who knows what in lawn chairs at a hospitality class tent.  The men, often with their kids and grand kids are watching on the sidelines discussing past games, plays, etc. 
the largest record crowd in NE for a Div3 game was 13,600 plus at Williams in 1997?

[gridiron]

The fact is moving the Harvard Yale game from the oldest concrete stadium in the nation to Fenway would be a step down for the players and fans in virtually every conceivable way.

Difficult enough for NESCAC football teams to draw fans for any game, so while the idea of Fenway might be intriguing, just don't see it getting legs for Amherst Williams.  Might actually have more potential local fans for a Tufts tilt sometime in the future, if the team could turn things around someday.

[amh63]

Tufts was the top dog in the conference in 1996 ?so there is history there.  The owner of the NY Gaints played at Tufts and has been most generous to his school.  The jumbos can rise again with administration and student backing...and alums.  They are coming on strong in other sports recently!

[gridiron]

Hard to imagine at this point Tufts was at the top of the league at one point, but times do change.  For the program to turn things around the coaches need to get better at all aspects of the job, including recruiting.  In conjunction, "the elephant in the room" would need to be acknowledged.  Specifically, the fact is there are players on the rosters of some of the other top NESCAC academic institutions that the Tufts program is simply unable to get through admissions. 

[frank uible]

My SWAG is that 4 to 6 of the football playing NESCAC schools have stricter admission standards for football players than Tufts.

[gridiron]

Frank--it theory, yes.  However, in practice the guidelines established for the bands are not as strictly followed by some institutions as one might assume.  Call it creativity to achieve objectives.  This has been the case for several years (if not longer).  Those close to the programs are aware of the differences which can result in what many might consider some "counter-intuitive" selection decisions.

[lumbercat]

Frank-
You state that 4-6 of the NESCAC schools have more rigid admissions requirements than Tufts for Football players.
Wondering which schools you see in this group.
I have no grip on this other than the share perception that Trinity has perennially been the most "flexible".
Would like hear your take on this given your tenure on the NESCAC scene.

[nescac1]

I think that Williams and Amherst, despite their tremendous success in athletics, are the two toughest when it comes to athlete admissions.  Both cap TIPS at 66 (other than Wesleyan, other NESCAC schools can take more), have the highest statistical admissions profile to begin with, and in at least Williams' case, there was a lot of backlash among faculty about a decade ago about athletics admissions, leading to some fairly substantial limitations on athletic recruiting, which have certainly not abated.  Unsurprisingly, since that time, Williams has gone from total dominance across most NESCAC sports to dominance among sports that typically do not require substantial recruiting concessions (like swimming, tennis, crew, cross country, track and field) while merely being strong, but hardly dominant, performers in most team sports, and not very good at all in several team sports. 

Middlebury and Bowdoin are both nearly as competitive, generally, as Amherst and Williams in terms of admissions, but they have a bit more flexibility because SATs are optional (I think, possible that has changed) -- meaning, an athlete with strong grades but low SATs might be able to sneak through.  They alsot get a few more TIPS, which helps.  I'd put Wesleyan and Tufts at about the same level as Midd and Bowdoin, and then the rest of the NESCAC schools have even more flexibility, with Trinity having the most, especially when it comes to football and squash.

And that leads to another point.  Critically, these things are not uniform across sports across schools, and there are other criteria that come into play.  For example, I guarantee that Coach Hixon has more pull at Amherst than many of their younger coaches.  Same, I'd guess, for Coach Russo at Williams.  If you are a living legend with decades of success, that can only help you.  Schools will generally dip much further for football and hockey than for other sports (since Conn doesn't have football, not sure how that effects the rest of their recruiting).  Some schools on the same "tier" weight SAT's or grades relatively differently.  Others might have exceptions where local athletes from a hometown high school, or alumni kid athletes, get a little extra boost.  So a kid from Williamstown might be admittable at Williams but not Amherst, and vice versa for a kid from Holyoke. 

Even at particular schools, these things change over time.  When Amherst was 0-8 in football and got a new coach, they infamously dipped REALLY low to grab a few kids to jumpstart the program.  Now, they would never take some of those same kids.  I bet that if Trinity or Williams ever really fall off for several years in football, suddenly, there might be more pressure on admissions to bend juuuussttt a little more.  Wesleyan has over the past few years also been engaged in a program jumpstart.  And so on ...


So for any particular athlete, it's impossible to say, he DEFINITELY would have gotten into school [w] because he got into school [y], or would NOT get into school [w] because he got into school [z]. 

[gridiron]

NESCAC1—good stuff and in IMO, you are directionally correct with most information shared.  However, each of the NESCAC football programs has the same number of slots for an incoming football class—14 or 15 (Williams and Amherst have the same number as the rest of the league).  Legacy recruits at all NESCAC schools do NOT count against the allotment of 14/15 slots, so those recruits are automatic no-brainers, provided their academic credentials can meet the minimums set by the bands.  Same with certain minority recruits.

Regarding your point Williams and Amherst are the toughest for athlete admissions, caveats are required.  "Often among the toughest" would be a more accurate statement.  For example, as referenced in previous posts, currently, Tufts is holding the line more strictly on its football recruits resulting in it being "among the toughest" for football recruits to gain acceptance.  In addition most recognize there is likely a connection between the relative football successes of Williams and Amherst at least when compared to each other. 

We know the pendulum swings back and forth with many schools in the league based upon factors such as new coaches, admissions personnel, college presidents, success (or lack thereof) on the field, and perhaps even alumni pressure.  Over the past 10 years or so, three or four of the NESCAC football programs have made obvious adjustments based upon those types of factors.  I suspect each of the others might decide to make some changes over time (one way or the other) if warranted. 

The point was made previously not to lose sight of the fact that by and large all student athletes at these institutions have excellent academic credentials—very true.  It is also important to remember that recruiting schools can and do sometimes make decisions that would appear contrary to public perception.

[fulbakdad]

Hey NESCAC1.  I saw you mention Coach Mike Russo at Williams.  I played soccer for Mike the year before he started at Williams.  At Massasoit College in Brockton Mass, 1978.  He's a great guy.  I saw him a couple years ago at a game and was amazed he was still coaching!

[nescac1]

Gridiron, all very good points.   I was speaking more to sports in the aggregate, and you are correct that the schools are on level footing in terms of the number of recruits allocated to football.  Although some schools (like Trinity, Amherst, Williams, and now Midd and Wesleyan) consistently field much larger rosters than others, and I'm not sure if that is more a function of guys who can get in without being recruits choosing and sticking with those programs, or those programs taking far beyond the 15-16 formal "recruit" slots, while others accept far fewer of such players.  Because Trinity might start with 90 guys on the pre-season roster, while some others will start with 70. 

Fulbakdad, very cool.  Russo is a class act, and of course a coaching legend -- two Final Fours in the past five years, so obviously he hasn't slowed down much.  Whenever he leaves, there will be a plethora of candidates for the job that he groomed into current very successful college coaches.