FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

FightingCards · December 02, 2013, 09:14:27 AM

9 Game Schedule/Playoffs:

This topic was discussed in 1980 when I was a real Fighting Card. It also appears on early pages in this board 2005-2006. It's a great topic and will continue. My feeling is nothing will change with regard to playoff eligibility until the "Big Nescac" (Ivies) make a decision to go to the playoffs which I highly doubt. That said with some newer presidents in the league, a game 9 should be a reality and makes sense. They don't want to extend the season but they could start 1 week early. The only downfall is the added expense of bringing the players in a week early. The Wesleyan president would vote yes.

amh63 · December 02, 2013, 11:35:21 AM

FightingCard...great post/input. Now if we can get other posters to give a read of their Prez's feelings...especially, Jumbos, Polar Bears, and the Continentals.
There is a thought that comes to mind...does it take more than one Prez to get a topic on the agenda? If so, what is the number? My feeling here, if there is a number, is to have the Coaches/ADs to take a straw vote around the conference and then move ahead...with a Lead Prez making a likewise Straw vote to get it on the agenda, with a good feeling that there will be some sucess. That is how I would proceed. Thoughts?
Expect Trinity Prez to want to go ahead before a new Prez is selected...at least make it a criteria for selection?

...what say you Trinity8-0?

FightingCards · December 02, 2013, 11:59:33 AM

It would start from an Athletic Director first. I will speak to one before the month ends and send an update.

frank uible · December 03, 2013, 05:33:02 AM

Over the last 13 years and probably beyond the subject of 9 game schedules/ playoff participation/roster limits has been flogged to death on these boards despite various sorts of Presidents coming and going (ADs, coaches, students, parents and general alums are not influential in the process), all without change. In my view there exists a fundamental fear among NESCAC Trustees and Presidents that unlike other sports inter-collegiate football is susceptible, in the context of NESCAC, to becoming emphasized to the point of abuse - consequently the status quo has continued and is very unlikely to be altered in the foreseeable future, irrespective of what the Ivy League has done or may do.

amh63 · December 03, 2013, 12:05:00 PM

Frank U...it is interesting that you reference the start of the 21th century as a point of your negative view. A more important input would be if you knew when the last time there was a vote on the topic at hand....also if you know your coach, AD and possible...Prez thoughts are on the matter.
On your point of Trustees of CAC schools, that my friend is a stretch, IMO. Trustees come and go and primarily deal with money matters first and other matters second. If you stated faculty, I would agree wrt to Amherst .

frank uible · December 03, 2013, 01:04:28 PM

amh63: There was a President's vote about 2004 or 2005 on possible 9 game schedules. The ADs and coaches recommended such schedules - of course the proposition was voted down. Williams' then President was Shapiro (now gone to Northwestern as President), the AD was Sheehy (Dartmouth as AD), and the HFC was Whelan (you know where and as what). Don't know how Shapiro voted. It is doubtful that Williams' current President, AD or HFC are interested in resurrecting the long dead subject. A few of Williams' faculty are supportive of football, some are hostile, the vast majority are indifferent so long as the quo remains status.

amh63 · December 03, 2013, 01:57:25 PM

Frank U....thanks for the info. The time reference helps. The Amherst Prez at the time was in different to sports, IMO, as I would kid him wrt his school loyalties when he was seen at sport events.
Several decades or more ago, there were some studies made as to how male team sports impacted the academic atmosphere at Amherst...my take...and initiated, I believe, by the faculty. It really went nowhere and findings did not support the anti- sport faculty movement.
Knowing what Is happening at Northwestern now, I would guess that your Prez voted Yes. still it is interesting to note that your school was in midst of a Campaign or start of one and that your Prez, and AD both left for more fertile ground only a few years later...only to have the HFC also go.
Still, it's good to try again...it is time. The Tufts prez at the time is gone...after a Campaign, and new facilities are built by a generous Football alum...owner of the Giants, I believe. Bates has a new Williams Alum at its head and she knows that her job is to get Bates' endownment up in order to keep Bates competative in the education market place. Wesleyan' s position has changed since '05, I believe.
Thanks again Frank....any read on your relative new Prez. He seems to talk the talk to me.

frank uible · December 03, 2013, 04:16:37 PM

amh63: My SWAG is that Shapiro is at least a little more sports oriented than his successor, Faulk, but I could be very wrong as I have been so previously.

nescac1 · December 07, 2013, 08:38:42 AM

Congrats to Eph alum Dave Clawson for stunning Northern Illinois and leading Bowling Green to its first MAC title since 1992. I'm guessing that Clawson will, at some point in the next few years, follow in Urban Meyer's footsteps as a Bowling Green coach poached by a bigger D-1 program. Unless he wants to come back to his alma mater and help out --

. He's already a leading candidate for the Wake Forest job, which would be a perfect fit: he knows the recruiting in the area from his time at Richmond and Villanova, and it's a school that prioritizes academics. I'd be surprised if he didn't end up there.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=333402459

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10092552/wake-forest-demon-deacons-eye-bowling-green-falcons-coach-dave-clawson-ball-state-cardinals-coach-pete-lembo

SI also did a great article on Clawson a few months back:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20131023/dave-clawson-bowling-green/.

frank uible · December 07, 2013, 08:48:05 AM

Wake Forest tends to be a graveyard for football coaches, but that would have been said a fortiori about Duke a few years ago.

AmherstStudent05 · December 08, 2013, 08:51:47 PM

Quote from: frank uible on December 07, 2013, 08:48:05 AM
Wake Forest tends to be a graveyard for football coaches, but that would have been said a fortiori about Duke a few years ago.

Not quite sure what you are basing this on, Frank. Three of the last five Demon Deacon head football coaches have gone on to coach in the NFL after their time in Winston-Salem (John Mackovic, Al Groh, and Jim Caldwell).

I know very little about Coach Clawson. I have no idea whether Wake Forest is interested in him or if he would have any interest in them. However, should he wind up as the next Wake Forest football coach he will still have plenty of opportunity for "preferment."

frank uible · December 09, 2013, 07:17:38 AM

Historically Mid-American Conference heading coaching jobs have, from time to time, been stepping stones toward head coaching greatness. One can't recall one instance of the Wake Forest job being on that path unless one's definition of such greatness is undemanding. Why should Clawson step off that path when time for correction by him is so fleeting? Just to gain a job with improved remuneration? If so, then Clawson's aspiration would appear to be vulgar. Your correspondent believes Clawson can be better than that.

nescac1 · December 09, 2013, 07:57:40 AM

Sounds like Wake Forest and Boise State, and possibly UConn, are all potential Clawson suitors: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20131208/dave-clawson-bowling-green-wake-forest/

It's not clear to me which of those jobs is best. I think that Wake Forest is a great place to coach. You are at a high-academic school, which obviously is a good fit for Clawson. The expectations are fairly modest -- if you finish middle-of-the-pack in the ACC you are probably safe, and if you can contend for the title you are considered a genius. You are in one of the most fertile area of the country for recruiting and can recruit the entire Southeast. You are also at a great university in a great location, with a great quality of life. Boise has had the most recent success and has become a high-profile job, but now is playing tougher competition and will always struggle to recruit being in an area of the country with very limited football talent (and where Clawson has zero connections). Connecticut will always be a basketball-first school and is likewise in a part of the country with a very thin recruiting base. I'd take Wake out of those three.

There are no guarantees that better jobs will open up next year. There are also no guarantees that Bowling Green will repeat this year's success (all it takes is one injury to Matt Johnson ...), or that Clawson will ever be hotter as a candidate. If a BCS school like Wake gives him an offer, it would be very, very risky (and probably ill-advised) to turn it down. You just never know when those opportunities are going to come again.

AmherstStudent05 · December 09, 2013, 10:05:12 AM

Quote from: frank uible on December 09, 2013, 07:17:38 AM
Historically Mid-American Conference heading coaching jobs have, from time to time, been stepping stones toward head coaching greatness. One can't recall one instance of the Wake Forest job being on that path unless one's definition of such greatness is undemanding. Why should Clawson step off that path when time for correction by him is so fleeting? Just to gain a job with improved remuneration? If so, then Clawson's aspiration would appear to be vulgar. Your correspondent believes Clawson can be better than that.

Frank, do you mind sharing a suitably demanding definition of "greatness?" I never actually said that Coaches Mackovic, Groh, and Caldwell achieved greatness, just that they somehow managed to land very high profile head coaching gigs after landing at the supposed "graveyard" that is Wake Forest. Groh and Caldwell both have super bowl rings (as assistant coaches, to be sure -- Caldwell as Dungy's top assistant). Also, I believe that the overwhelming majority of Groh's players at Virginia graduated and stayed out of trouble (too bad they just couldn't beat Tech). But I don't know, maybe this or being the head football coach in a Super Bowl isn't good enough for Coach Clawson (of course, I don't mean to suggest that coaching at Wake Forest subsequently assures one of either of these things). Also, I would say that we likely have not heard the last from Coach Caldwell.

If your definition of "head coaching greatness" is simply winning national championships (a definition that some might well describe as "vulgar," but still one that I can certainly appreciate), then the MAC is only a "stepping stone" in a very indirect sense. Coach Meyer spent all of two seasons at Bowling Green before decamping for Utah, a move you would most assuredly have advised against since Utah then had no track record of hiring coaches who went on to "greatness" (though my man Jim Fassel did coach there). It was only after Meyer led the Utes to an undefeated season and a BCS bowl bid that Florida came calling.

Similarly, Coach Saban spent 1 year at Toledo before moving on to the NFL (as a d-coordinator under Belichick), then to Michigan St., before finding any semblance of coaching greatness at LSU. Bottom line, you don't win championships in the MAC. You generally don't even win championships in your first stop after leaving the MAC. If you want to achieve greatness, you should leave the MAC.

Look, if Coach Clawson really has the talent and the aspiration to win national (or world) championships, then nescac1 is quite right that he needs to start thinking seriously about moving up the coaching ladder to a program in a higher visibility conference. Wake is certainly one plausible option in that regard. If he is anything like Meyer or Saban, he should do wonders there.

Of course, there are other considerations in life. Coach Clawson and his family may love living in Bowling Green and may not want to leave the players and the program he has helped to mold. That is perfectly understandable.

frank uible · December 09, 2013, 12:04:19 PM

Admittedly the use of "graveyard" was hyperbolic and required explanation. The definition of "coaching greatness" will remain Potter Stewart-like. In my view, the head job at Wake Forest is not by any stretch on the road to greatness, and Clawson can do better. As far as NFL championship rings go, I have two and am declining to claim greatness of any kind whatsoever, football connected or otherwise.