FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Doid23]

Really enjoy the anti-NESCAC vitriol.  If so many folks hate you, you must be doing something right.

First, there is no way any football game could ever mean more to Williams and Amherst players and alumni than the rivalry game to end the year.  There is a reason College Gameday broadcast from that game as opposed to some random playoff game.  Of course, not sure that logic holds up for anyone else in the conference, where the rivalries are less clear or less 1-to-1.  

More generally, the answer why football is different from every other sport is obvious. It takes a LOT more football players, each earning (on average) a MUCH more severe admissions concession, to be remotely competitive with other D-3 schools in football, than in other sports.  NESCAC schools have been moving the OTHER direction -- they cap football rosters at 75, the admission floor for athletes has risen substantially over the past decade, etc.  It's like asking, why doesn't the Ivy league play D I-A and compete with the likes of USC?  They'd either get decimated, or have to change their entire admissions ethos, which they aren't willing to do.  It's relatively easy for a NESCAC school to find 2-3 very good soccer or hoops players who generally fit in on campus, in terms of academics, each year. It is MUCH more difficult to find 15 or so ace football players, each year, who don't require massive admissions concessions (for Williams, we are talking about RARELY going below 1300 SAT for a football player nowadays, big difference from 15 years ago -- how many star football players, who aren't scooped up by Ivy leagues or good enough to earn a D-I scholarship, are even out there with those types of credentials?  Multiply times eight NESCAC schools times 75 kids each, and that is the problem) ....  The schools have found a happy medium whereby they can compete with each other, but don't feel a pressure to compete (and potentially be embarassed) nationally, inevitably upping the pressure on coaches / admissions to substantially lower admissions standards.  It's nothing to do with snobbery or anything like that and everything to do with core institutional mission and the fear of pressures to reverse the recent trend in cutting back admissions concessions.  Believe me, if anything, many NESCAC schools feel football is STILL over-emphasized on campuses, alas.  

Certainly no NESCAC hate here. How could I hate NESCAC, when some of my fondest football memories were going into places like Williamstown, thumping them by 50 or so points, and getting to hear the "we have higher SAT's" and "safety school" chants, followed by the all you can eat gluttony at arguably the greatest campus cafeterias? But the question remains, why isn't what you said true for all other sports, and why is football treated differently? NESCAC teams are competitive in lacrosse, basketball, and hockey (and I'm sure other sports, e.g. Trinity Squash), and while these teams don't have 75 man rosters, the high school talent pool is also similary small. So the same pressures to lower admissions standards, and grant admissions concessions are there, yet they are able to manage them.

As to the rivalry comment, wouldn't that hold true for other sports as well? If beating Amherst is the pinnacle of a Williams lacrosse players season, wouldn't any NCAA tournament game pale in comparison? Listen, obviously NESCAC has chosen to de-emphasize football, which is their right, and nothing I'm going to get worked up about, but the logic falls short since they don't treat other sports the same way.

[nescac1]

All I can say is, there is a difference.  Even as is, without pressure to compete nationally, football (along with ice hockey, but that involves a much smaller roster, and only a few schools take it really seriously) requires by FAR the greatest admissions concessions, football takes guys below where other sports can, from what I understand.  There is simply no way the NESCAC schools will go back to the way things were 5-10 years ago with bigger rosters and even bigger concessions to field potentially nationally competitive football teams.  I'm not making a judgment either way, just explaining the reality of the situation.  NESCAC is BARELY even able to compete in the NCAA's at all -- lots of Presidents are against that.   It is much, much, much easier to find 5-6 lacrosse players who approximate the average academics credentials of any given NESCAC school than it is to find 20 football players, and it's not even close.  There is a range of feelings at NESCAC schools with, I'd say, Amherst, Williams, Trinity, Midd, maybe Bowdoin, pro athletics / pro NCAA's etc., but the rest of the league may be iffier.  Again, football is seen in a negative light to begin with by many in NESCAC, but if it is seen as compromising / diluting admissions standards too much, there will be a huge backlash, as there kind of already was.  Just the way of the world in NESCAC, for better or for worse. 

[union89]

Really enjoy the anti-NESCAC vitriol.  If so many folks hate you, you must be doing something right.

First, there is no way any football game could ever mean more to Williams and Amherst players and alumni than the rivalry game to end the year.  There is a reason College Gameday broadcast from that game as opposed to some random playoff game.  Of course, not sure that logic holds up for anyone else in the conference, where the rivalries are less clear or less 1-to-1. 

More generally, the answer why football is different from every other sport is obvious. It takes a LOT more football players, each earning (on average) a MUCH more severe admissions concession, to be remotely competitive with other D-3 schools in football, than in other sports.  NESCAC schools have been moving the OTHER direction -- they cap football rosters at 75, the admission floor for athletes has risen substantially over the past decade, etc.  It's like asking, why doesn't the Ivy league play D I-A and compete with the likes of USC?  They'd either get decimated, or have to change their entire admissions ethos, which they aren't willing to do.  It's relatively easy for a NESCAC school to find 2-3 very good soccer or hoops players who generally fit in on campus, in terms of academics, each year. It is MUCH more difficult to find 15 or so ace football players, each year, who don't require massive admissions concessions (for Williams, we are talking about RARELY going below 1300 SAT for a football player nowadays, big difference from 15 years ago -- how many star football players, who aren't scooped up by Ivy leagues or good enough to earn a D-I scholarship, are even out there with those types of credentials?  Multiply times eight NESCAC schools times 75 kids each, and that is the problem) ....  The schools have found a happy medium whereby they can compete with each other, but don't feel a pressure to compete (and potentially be embarassed) nationally, inevitably upping the pressure on coaches / admissions to substantially lower admissions standards.  It's nothing to do with snobbery or anything like that and everything to do with core institutional mission and the fear of pressures to reverse the recent trend in cutting back admissions concessions.  Believe me, if anything, many NESCAC schools feel football is STILL over-emphasized on campuses, alas. 

+1....well stated without being condescending.

[nescac1]

Thanks, appreciate.

All NESCAC out:

http://www.nescac.com/sports/fball/2009-10/honors/allconference 

Amherst deservedly dominates all-conference defense.  McKillop, Mills, Taylor, Cameron all pretty much no-brainers, especially McKillop and Mills.  Looks about right although how is Galligan not first-team???

Returning to discussion of this season, finally able to comment on the Williams / Amherst game.  One of the most frustrating games I have ever watched ... Williams I firmly believe was the most talented team in NESCAC this year, but everything that could go wrong, did in that game.  Of course, Amherst has had the same thing happen to them multiple times over the years vs. Williams, so I guess they were due, that and they just wanted it that much more.  Starting with 2/3 Williams captains / best players missing the game with injury (including star receiver Nick Caro), to a dropped sure-pick six, to not falling on the ball on the botched punt, to two tipped passes that could have been INT's going for big plays for Amherst (including one resulting in a TD), to one attrocious call giving Amherst an INT ... all plays they have to make (other than the call).  Again, the streak had to end sometime, and this Amherst team was gutty as all heck with a ridiculously good defense, but what a heartbreaker for the Ephs.  To Amherst's credit, they pounced on every opportunity, made every play count, just like they did all year.  The defense was relentless and super fast ...   And a rivalry isn't a rivalry without heartbrearkers in both directions, but this one was definitely tough to stomach.  But as I myself have said, if ifs and buts were candies and nuts ... Amherst won because they were, in the end, the best team in NESCAC. 

I think the Ephs are going to come back SUPER motivated next year.  The theme in the offseason should be pretty easy -- one more inch (the difference on the two tipped passes), one more yard (the difference on the game-ending play, which has to go down as one of the best plays in Amherst history, incredible tackle in a huge situation, epitomized the Amherst season), one more offsides recovery ... they will be the most talented team in the NESCAC next year (returning 16/21 guys who started v. Amherst, plus almost every key sub), but this year proved that talent is not enough, you gotta make the plays in the key situation, and both Amherst and Trinity did.  Ephs' front seven is gonna be stacked next year with all-conference guys Schultz, Curzi, Canina, and Cameron back, plus top-notch LB's Barren and Johnson back healthy (both missed half the season or more).  Offense loses a few solid O-linemen but Williams always reloads there, and every skill guy is back except for Caro, who missed the little 3 games in any event.  Bennett is developing into a star WR, Lupo is the best back in the league, and they have two very experienced QB's, so the Ephs will have a LOT of weapons. 

The big four figure once again to be Midd (lose a lot, but with McKillop -- best QB in NESCAC history?? -- anything is possible), Trinity (almost everyone back and they always find a good RB), Amherst (obviously, although the defense loses a LOT of big-time players), and the Ephs in some order.   No one else looks close although Wes seems to be on the upswing.  And with that, see folks next fall. 

[bear1234]

It seems as if any time Williams or Amherst loses they should have won.  When are people from Williams and Amherst going to realize that if you lose you lose.  For example, with Amherst, Bowdoin absolutely dominated them.  Does that mean that Bowdoin should have won the game..No.  The name of the game is who wins and the ability to win is a stat that gets over looked. 

All league selections I thought were pretty solid.  As always, Tufts got more than they deserved.  I thought Williams, Amherst, and Trinity should have dominated the lines which they did.  Starr from Bowdoin got absolutely snubbed and the Amherst receiver should not have been on there.  There offense was not their strong point whether it was his fault or not Starr was far superior.  Galligan should definitely have been first team.

Fallas got first team which is probably where he should have been.  Definitely someone to watch as a future defensive player of the year.  Taylor definitely deserved it though being the leader of the best defense in the league on the best team in the league.

McKillop definitely the right choice. I though Kell was better than McKillop a year ago even though all league didnt reflect it.  They both got better but McKillop upped his game to a whole other level even with losing their all league wide out from two years ago.  Nothing against Kell, he is exceptional and probably the toughest kid in the league.  Middlebury had the better offense though and won more games.

Congrats to Amherst for finally winning the league after some other very talented teams had possibly fallen short.

[TuftsBos]

As always, Tufts got more than they deserve??

Not sure where that comment comes from. I'm pretty sure all six of those guys were damn deserving of the honor they received.  I would argue that a healthy Tom Tassinari is the best player in the league on either side of the ball.  Also, historically, what makes you think that Tufts gets more than they deserve?   

[TheHerst2and4]

  Also, historically, what makes you think that Tufts gets more than they deserve?   

I dunno, that kid Kevin Anderson...highly overrated...

[John McGraw]

  Also, historically, what makes you think that Tufts gets more than they deserve?   

I dunno, that kid Kevin Anderson...highly overrated...

Both posters have school .edu e-mail addresses, not hard to find out who they are

[TheHerst2and4]

  Also, historically, what makes you think that Tufts gets more than they deserve?   

I dunno, that kid Kevin Anderson...highly overrated...

Both posters have school .edu e-mail addresses, not hard to find out who they are

Actually we both have our names as our e-mail addresses hah

[Jonny Utah]

  Also, historically, what makes you think that Tufts gets more than they deserve?   

I dunno, that kid Kevin Anderson...highly overrated...

I agree.  Very overrated.

[pg04]

For the record I had nothing to do with pointing this out 

[union89]

For the record I had nothing to do with pointing this out 

Kind of a different situation when both kids are in here attempting to toot their own horns (not even their teams).....makes me embarassed for having defended the NESCAC earlier.

[pg04]

For the record I had nothing to do with pointing this out  

Kind of a different situation when both kids are in here attempting to toot their own horns (not even their teams).....makes me embarassed for having defended the NESCAC earlier.

Agreed... Overall I'd like to see the NESCAC compete outside of itself but in the end it just doesn't matter that much to me to really care. 

[union89]

For the record I had nothing to do with pointing this out  

Kind of a different situation when both kids are in here attempting to toot their own horns (not even their teams).....makes me embarassed for having defended the NESCAC earlier.

Agreed... Overall I'd like to see the NESCAC compete outside of itself but in the end it just doesn't matter that much to me to really care. 

At least we're not involved in that E8PP craziness.....

[pg04]

For the record I had nothing to do with pointing this out  

Kind of a different situation when both kids are in here attempting to toot their own horns (not even their teams).....makes me embarassed for having defended the NESCAC earlier.

Agreed... Overall I'd like to see the NESCAC compete outside of itself but in the end it just doesn't matter that much to me to really care. 

At least we're not involved in that E8PP craziness.....

I'm really not sure what's going on over there...I think it's turned into an equestrian board!