FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[fulbakdad]

Going in the right direction?  Curry went:

07- 12-1
08- 10-2
09- 8-3
10- 6-4
11- 5-5

Accoriding to my basic math skills, they should be going 4-6 or 3-7 this year.

Plymouth State was good in the 80's when Dudek was there, but have had some dismall seasons in the last 15 years with a couple ok ones sprinkled in.  The coach there relies on the NH kids too much.  He needs to get out of state more.

[Jonny Utah]

Going in the right direction?  Curry went:

07- 12-1
08- 10-2
09- 8-3
10- 6-4
11- 5-5

Accoriding to my basic math skills, they should be going 4-6 or 3-7 this year.

Plymouth State was good in the 80's when Dudek was there, but have had some dismall seasons in the last 15 years with a couple ok ones sprinkled in.  The coach there relies on the NH kids too much.  He needs to get out of state more.

I didn't want to write a thesis paper on it but yes, Curry's record isn't really going up the past few years.  My point had to do with the school itself, the facilities, the coaching staff quality, the 10 game schedules, an automatic bid to the national playoffs, the press coverage of d3football in Boston, etc, etc.

Plymouth State was also one game away from the national semifinals in 1994.  I believe they have a base because they can let in a lot of kids, they have an edge on NH kids, they have done it before, and thats about it.

[Pat Coleman]

Plymouth State was also one game away from the national semifinals in 1994.

In a 16-team playoff, which is what we had in 1994, that means they had to win one playoff game. They beat 7-2 Kings Point 19-18.

[banfan]

Pat, you are letting the facts get in the way.  lol

There are at least two ways of looking at Curry and Plymouth.  It has been a while at Plymouth and Curry has invested with no recent results, for example.

It is great for chatting but no one in the NESCAC or anywhere else for that matter, would choose Endicott, Curry, or Plymouth over a NESCAC school.  At D3, football is for fun and the love of the game, your relationships, playing for your school, etc..  Sure, you work hard and put your best into it, but that is it......  Anyone playing at a D3 school who approaches it differently is, IMHO, _________ (fill in the blank).

[Jonny Utah]

Plymouth State was also one game away from the national semifinals in 1994.

In a 16-team playoff, which is what we had in 1994, that means they had to win one playoff game. They beat 7-2 Kings Point 19-18.

Before we have any serious discussion about national champions or teams that can compete at the national level, we have to face the fact that really only 3-4 teams a year over the past 10 years have any chance of winning a national championship.  So Curry beats a top 20 ranked Ithaca team?  So what, the top 20 doesn't really mean anything, but the top 4 (and maybe the top 10 does).  So yea, Plymouth State, Curry, Ithaca, Union, Hobart, Springfield, have no chance to win a national title this year, and I don't see one in the near future.

I bet if you look at several national champions before 1997, many of them had close playoff games in the early rounds with teams similar to 7-2 Kings. 

Regardless, Plymouth State and Curry are schools where I believe coaches can go in and compete nationally.  Compare these schools with places like Framingham, Westfield, or Fitchburg State which have zero support from the schools/state.  Framingham State is absoutly in its own category in terms of committment to winning.  I base a lot this on my own experiences walking into these coaches offices, seeing the facilities and talking with staff at these programs.

[Jonny Utah]

Pat, you are letting the facts get in the way.  lol

There are at least two ways of looking at Curry and Plymouth.  It has been a while at Plymouth and Curry has invested with no recent results, for example.

It is great for chatting but no one in the NESCAC or anywhere else for that matter, would choose Endicott, Curry, or Plymouth over a NESCAC school.  At D3, football is for fun and the love of the game, your relationships, playing for your school, etc..  Sure, you work hard and put your best into it, but that is it......  Anyone playing at a D3 school who approaches it differently is, IMHO, _________ (fill in the blank).

Are you talking about playing or coaching? 

Sure, players are not going to choose NEFC schools over NESCAC schools (except for MIT and Coast Guard).  Coaches might, but only if they want to stay with their family and build a program in the Boston area, rather than live in upstate NY or Maine.

At D3, football is for fun and the love of the game, your relationships, playing for your school, etc..  Sure, you work hard and put your best into it, but that is it......  Anyone playing at a D3 school who approaches it differently is, IMHO, _________ (fill in the blank).


I think you are 100% wrong on that one.  If you played at Trinity, you shouldn't have that attitude either.  But thats just my opinion.

[frank uible]

Of course, there ain't no room in toney, unsoiled NESCAC for none of them grimy, low brow, socially and academically unsuitable grunts for whom playing football is their passion.

[Jonny Utah]

Of course, there ain't no room in toney, unsoiled NESCAC for none of them grimy, low brow, socially and academically unsuitable grunts for whom playing football is their passion.

Ha!  Good one Frank.

[amh63]

Frank U.......you are getting close to home on your last post!
Interesting recent posts.  At Amherst, many of the coaches are allowed to run camps... I assume that the camps supplement their income and increase their contact network.  Amherst's football camp ended 28 of June.  Just to throw some data into the pot in the coach movement picture.  Hamilton needs to wrap up their selection soon.  The Fall is just around the corner...I know wishful thoughts as another hot week in Maryland and welcome guests at home.  One of my sons and his wife are houseguest as their normal resident awaits power.
Happy 4th of July to all.....be careful.

[fulbakdad]

Plymouth State, Curry, Ithaca, Union, Hobart, Springfield
Plymouth State and Curry have no business in that list!

Ithaca has the long football heritage and good academics along with being a "larger" D3 school.   Union and Hobart have much higher academics AND football programs.  Springfield attracts the very athletic types that might have problems getting into higher academic schools or go there for specific programs.  Plymouth State is one of two lower tier NH State schools (below UNH).  A lot of future teachers end up there for the lower cost teaching certification.  But Curry and Plymouth are on a different level than the rest of that list.

[Jonny Utah]

Plymouth State, Curry, Ithaca, Union, Hobart, Springfield
Plymouth State and Curry have no business in that list!

Ithaca has the long football heritage and good academics along with being a "larger" D3 school.   Union and Hobart have much higher academics AND football programs.  Springfield attracts the very athletic types that might have problems getting into higher academic schools or go there for specific programs.  Plymouth State is one of two lower tier NH State schools (below UNH).  A lot of future teachers end up there for the lower cost teaching certification.  But Curry and Plymouth are on a different level than the rest of that list.

And yet they all have a 0% chance of winning a national championship next year.

[Jonny Utah]

Plymouth State, Curry, Ithaca, Union, Hobart, Springfield
Plymouth State and Curry have no business in that list!

Ithaca has the long football heritage and good academics along with being a "larger" D3 school.   Union and Hobart have much higher academics AND football programs.  Springfield attracts the very athletic types that might have problems getting into higher academic schools or go there for specific programs.  Plymouth State is one of two lower tier NH State schools (below UNH).  A lot of future teachers end up there for the lower cost teaching certification.  But Curry and Plymouth are on a different level than the rest of that list.

And yet they all have a 0% chance of winning a national championship next year.

Look.  My point is that with the right coach, these schools can compete nationally.  A school like Framingham State could hire Nick Saban and they still wouldn't win (if they kept the funding and facilities the same).  I do believe that if Nick Saban took the Plymouth State job, they would be a top 5 team in 5 years.

[fulbakdad]

Plymouth State top 5 in 5 years?

No way, wouldn't matter who was coaching.  The facilities are old.  The school is about to crash due to NH State underfunding.  The pool to pick from is very slim because of the caliber of NH football.  There's not enough compitition for them to develop.  Most of the real players leave for boarding schools to up the comp.

[Bombers798891]

Plymouth State, Curry, Ithaca, Union, Hobart, Springfield
Plymouth State and Curry have no business in that list!

Ithaca has the long football heritage and good academics along with being a "larger" D3 school.   Union and Hobart have much higher academics AND football programs.  Springfield attracts the very athletic types that might have problems getting into higher academic schools or go there for specific programs.  Plymouth State is one of two lower tier NH State schools (below UNH).  A lot of future teachers end up there for the lower cost teaching certification.  But Curry and Plymouth are on a different level than the rest of that list.

And yet they all have a 0% chance of winning a national championship next year.

Look.  My point is that with the right coach, these schools can compete nationally.  A school like Framingham State could hire Nick Saban and they still wouldn't win (if they kept the funding and facilities the same).  I do believe that if Nick Saban took the Plymouth State job, they would be a top 5 team in 5 years.

I think, what Mount and Whitewater have done has raised the bar so that you really have to be committed to success in order to contend. I think of Cortland State in the mid 80's to early 90's. They were pretty uninspiring for a long time in the 1970's/1980's, including going 1-8 in 1986. Two years later, they were one of the best teams in all D-III, and might have won the national title had they not had to to go on the road in the 2nd round of the playoffs to play an Ithaca team they had already beaten. By 1993, they were back down to one win. The toiled between decent and mediocre for the next 10 years.

I don't think you can poke your head up like Cortland did from 1988-1990 and play with the big boys for a couple years (And even then "a couple" might be generous. That 1988 team was a pretty astounding outlier, frankly. Looking around I see:

Wesley winning double-digit games 6 times in 7 years,
Hardin-Baylor doing so in 8 of the last 10.
St. Thomas on a streak of three straight 11 win seasons (ongoing, which is why I include it, even though like Cortland's it is three years.)
Linfield's four year stretch where they went 44-2—and after three "down" years, they're back near the top.
St. John's had 11 or more wins seven times in eight years
Rowan had sustained success. 

IDK, maybe Bethel did have those swings, but even then, when things were good, they got thumped badly by Mount when they played them in 2007 and 2010, so were they really national contenders? Maybe Fisher, but I think they'll stick around long enough that I put the 2006 team (that absolutely could have won it all) as that first team that got it started

I think that to be a national contender now you really need to elevate your program to a level that enables continued national success, not just be an okay program that has a magical year of greatness thanks to one class of recruits (Like the '88 Red Dragons.) And that requires things that most schools just don't have—or aren't willing to give. Are the Union's and Hobart's committed to that? I don't think the Bombers are at all, at least administratively

[Jonny Utah]

Plymouth State, Curry, Ithaca, Union, Hobart, Springfield
Plymouth State and Curry have no business in that list!

Ithaca has the long football heritage and good academics along with being a "larger" D3 school.   Union and Hobart have much higher academics AND football programs.  Springfield attracts the very athletic types that might have problems getting into higher academic schools or go there for specific programs.  Plymouth State is one of two lower tier NH State schools (below UNH).  A lot of future teachers end up there for the lower cost teaching certification.  But Curry and Plymouth are on a different level than the rest of that list.

And yet they all have a 0% chance of winning a national championship next year.

Look.  My point is that with the right coach, these schools can compete nationally.  A school like Framingham State could hire Nick Saban and they still wouldn't win (if they kept the funding and facilities the same).  I do believe that if Nick Saban took the Plymouth State job, they would be a top 5 team in 5 years.

I think, what Mount and Whitewater have done has raised the bar so that you really have to be committed to success in order to contend. I think of Cortland State in the mid 80's to early 90's. They were pretty uninspiring for a long time in the 1970's/1980's, including going 1-8 in 1986. Two years later, they were one of the best teams in all D-III, and might have won the national title had they not had to to go on the road in the 2nd round of the playoffs to play an Ithaca team they had already beaten. By 1993, they were back down to one win. The toiled between decent and mediocre for the next 10 years.

I don't think you can poke your head up like Cortland did from 1988-1990 and play with the big boys for a couple years (And even then "a couple" might be generous. That 1988 team was a pretty astounding outlier, frankly. Looking around I see:

Wesley winning double-digit games 6 times in 7 years,
Hardin-Baylor doing so in 8 of the last 10.
St. Thomas on a streak of three straight 11 win seasons (ongoing, which is why I include it, even though like Cortland's it is three years.)
Linfield's four year stretch where they went 44-2—and after three "down" years, they're back near the top.
St. John's had 11 or more wins seven times in eight years
Rowan had sustained success. 

IDK, maybe Bethel did have those swings, but even then, when things were good, they got thumped badly by Mount when they played them in 2007 and 2010, so were they really national contenders? Maybe Fisher, but I think they'll stick around long enough that I put the 2006 team (that absolutely could have won it all) as that first team that got it started

I think that to be a national contender now you really need to elevate your program to a level that enables continued national success, not just be an okay program that has a magical year of greatness thanks to one class of recruits (Like the '88 Red Dragons.) And that requires things that most schools just don't have—or aren't willing to give. Are the Union's and Hobart's committed to that? I don't think the Bombers are at all, at least administratively

Oh you are 100% right.  But I think the coach is what can elevate programs, given at the very least decent facilities and a halfway decent educational background.  You have to remember that good football coaches can get things done at small colleges.  Often times these guys also have the administrative background to turn other aspects of the athletic department around as well.  Football programs also have Assistant coaches who often coach other sports, including women's sports, conditioning programs for the school, or other admisntrative duties.  These guys can network and boost athletic programs as a whole, and presidents and ADs like that.

If Don Brown stayed at Plymouth State for his career, I think they could have done some damage nationally, but I could be wrong.  Maybe he left because Plymouth Statemwas unwilling to do some things his way.  Sometimes it works that way as well.  That guy is a hell of a coach, and knew how to win.