FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[lumbercat]

The original premise here whch made no sense was that a coach may prefer a Head Coaching position at Endicott or Western New England above a NESCAC HC opportunity because these schools have less restictions that enable them to compete for a national title.

This assumption is unlikely unless one of these institiutions "recruited" an NESCAC head coach with promises of an unprecedented philospohical and fiscal commitment to winning at the D3 level at all costs.---( as Curry did several years back with the hiring of Steve Nelson to lead their all out run at D3 prominence. They did experience some marked success but this success was too taxing on the institution and could not be sustained at Curry. They subsequently reeled the progam back in to where it is now.)

The reality is that no NESCAC coaches who left their programs voluntarily (or involuntarily) have gravitated to a NEFC job.

These NESCAC job are highly desireable. If possible, NESCAC Head Coaches hold these job until retirement while a small minority of those in these positions take a shot at a higher level. No one at the NESCAC level is considering the NEFC or for that matter any of the allegedly more competitive, elite D3 athletic conferences aroung the country.

A NESCAC head job is as good as it gets in D3 and the record outlined below shows this to be true.

In conclusion: Most NESAC coaches stick around to retirement, move to a higher level, or sometimes move to another NESCAC coaching job. (It's pretty much the same in Basketball too).

NESCAC Football Head coaching changes in the last 30 years:

Bowdoin: Vandersea retired- Caputi in
Colby: Austin retired- Mestieri in- Mestieri fired- 2012 Michaeles of Bates hired
Bates: Pardy fired goes to Marist as Asst- Harriman in from Harvard
Tufts: Gatto goes to Davidson as HC- Samko in-Samko fired- Samko to Holy Cross as asst- Civetti from Trinity hired 2011
Amherst: Seidlecki in from WPI- Seidlecki to Yale- EJ Mills, Amherst Asst is hired
Williams: Dick Farley retires- Mike Whelan Asst, hired as head coach- Whelan goes to Wesleyan ($$$)- Aaron Helton hired from Columbia
Wesleyan: Kevin Spencer resigns to take job with Cleveland Browns- Frank Hauser, Wesleyan asst hired- Hauser fired- Whelan hired from Williams
Middlebury- Mickey Heinecken retires- Asst coach Ritter in
Hamilton- Tim Penderast resigns to take Cornell HC job- Pete Alvanos hired from Swarthmore after they drop football- Alvanos fired- replaced by ex Dartmouth QB and UNH assistant Steve Stetson- Stetson "reassigned" in 2012 to Hamilton Golf Coach-2012 New coach hire pending?
Trinity- Chuck Priore resigns to take HC job at Stony Brook- Asst Jeff Devanney hired

[Jonny Utah]

The original premise here whch made no sense was that a coach may prefer a Head Coaching position at Endicott or Western New England above a NESCAC HC opportunity because these schools have less restictions that enable them to compete for a national title.

This assumption is unlikely unless one of these institiutions "recruited" an NESCAC head coach with promises of an unprecedented philospohical and fiscal commitment to winning at the D3 level at all costs.---( as Curry did several years back with the hiring of Steve Nelson to lead their all out run at D3 prominence. They did experience some marked success but this success was too taxing on the institution and could not be sustained at Curry. They subsequently reeled the progam back in to where it is now.)

The reality is that no NESCAC coaches who left their programs voluntarily (or involuntarily) have gravitated to a NEFC job.

These NESCAC job are highly desireable. If possible, NESCAC Head Coaches hold these job until retirement while a small minority of those in these positions take a shot at a higher level. No one at the NESCAC level is considering the NEFC or for that matter any of the allegedly more competitive, elite D3 athletic conferences aroung the country.

A NESCAC head job is as good as it gets in D3 and the record outlined below shows this to be true.

In conclusion: Most NESAC coaches stick around to retirement, move to a higher level, or sometimes move to another NESCAC coaching job. (It's pretty much the same in Basketball too).

NESCAC Football Head coaching changes in the last 30 years:

Bowdoin: Vandersea retired- Caputi in
Colby: Austin retired- Mestieri in- Mestieri fired- 2012 Michaeles of Bates hired
Bates: Pardy fired goes to Marist as Asst- Harriman in from Harvard
Tufts: Gatto goes to Davidson as HC- Samko in-Samko fired- Samko to Holy Cross as asst- Civetti from Trinity hired 2011
Amherst: Seidlecki in from WPI- Seidlecki to Yale- EJ Mills, Amherst Asst is hired
Williams: Dick Farley retires- Mike Whelan Asst, hired as head coach- Whelan goes to Wesleyan ($$$)- Aaron Helton hired from Columbia
Wesleyan: Kevin Spencer resigns to take job with Cleveland Browns- Frank Hauser, Wesleyan asst hired- Hauser fired- Whelan hired from Williams
Middlebury- Mickey Heinecken retires- Asst coach Ritter in
Hamilton- Tim Penderast resigns to take Cornell HC job- Pete Alvanos hired from Swarthmore after they drop football- Alvanos fired- replaced by ex Dartmouth QB and UNH assistant Steve Stetson- Stetson "reassigned" in 2012 to Hamilton Golf Coach-2012 New coach hire pending?
Trinity- Chuck Priore resigns to take HC job at Stony Brook- Asst Jeff Devanney hired

No, that really isn't the original premise here, and you said coaches would go to the nescac over the NEFC regardless of pay, which I think is untrue.  If MIT or Coast Guard offered high salaries ( which would also mean a commitment to the program), coaches would choose those those schools over some nescac schools.  And if a school like WNEC or Plymouth State said they were going to offer high salaries and improve facilities, you might also see coaches choose those schools over some nescac schools.

That NESCAC coaching tree you cite isn't much different than any E8 or LL coaching tree.  The NEFC staffs are going to be different because many have been part time for so long.

[lumbercat]

Jonny-
Salary is the primary consideration in most jobs. Remuneration/ benefits  are a major part of the reason why NESCAC jobs are valued and embraced until severence or retirement as I illustrated. Not the case in the NEFC.

I don't see an NEFC job being preferable to a NESCAC job unless there was an unusual situation that would have to be framed by the very unlikely circumstances that you indicate may lead an NESCAC HC to move in that direction.

Highly doubtful and proven by history, guys aren't leaving the NESCAC for the NEFC, qualified candidates will opt for the NESCAC---It's a better job for a number of reasons-- thats my premise.

[Jonny Utah]

Jonny-
Salary is the primary consideration in most jobs. Remuneration/ benefits  are a major part of the reason why NESCAC jobs are valued and embraced until severence or retirement as I illustrated. Not the case in the NEFC.

I don't see an NEFC job being preferable to a NESCAC job unless there was an unusual situation that would have to be framed by the very unlikely circumstances that you indicate may lead an NESCAC HC to move in that direction.

Highly doubtful and proven by history, guys aren't leaving the NESCAC for the NEFC, qualified candidates will opt for the NESCAC---It's a better job for a number of reasons-- thats my premise.

In general you are correct.  But some coaches are still not going to leave their families in the Boston area to take a job in northern Vermont or upstate New York.  It all depends on the person.  If Skip Bandini was offered the Hamilton job or the Mass Maritime job, I'm going to bet he is taking the Mass Maritime job.  He is going to do that because he went there, and he is a Boston guy who probably isn't going to leave the area. 

There is no doubt in my mind that every single NESCAC job is better than every single NEFC job with the exception of possibly Coast Guard.  But d3 coaches don't always work like that.

[fulbakdad]

NESCAC is more appealing to coaches because they pay better.  End of story.  NEFC is less supported, lesser facilities and lower paying.  And what local coverage do they get?  The 4 sentance blog in the Globe on Sunday for each game?

There are a couple NEFC teams that have done ok against better leagues.  Salve did well last year against Union and Monclair State, but it was an off year for Union.  WNEC rolled all year except for a hiccup against Mass Maritime, only to get crushed by Salisbury in the playoffs.

The NEFC and the NESCAC need to expose themselves to outside compitition to even be considered.  NESCAC is what it is.  Extremely high academics (which dq's many interested better players) and football that is competitive inside thier small harbor.  The NEFC needs to follow the Salve route and venture outside of New England unless they want to continue to be surprised how good the other teams are once you go into the playoffs.

I liked Chesney when we visited Salve.  Even wanted my son to go there (but glad he didn't, he found a better fitting school) because he was so upbeat and seemed up for the challenge.  But when I was thinking it over after we left, I wondered how long he would stay there?  Would he be there in 4 years when the boy was a senior or was this a resume builder?

the LL and Empire 8 appeared to be much more competitive during our search.  That's football only.

[Jonny Utah]

NESCAC is more appealing to coaches because they pay better.  End of story.  NEFC is less supported, lesser facilities and lower paying.  And what local coverage do they get?  The 4 sentance blog in the Globe on Sunday for each game?

There are a couple NEFC teams that have done ok against better leagues.  Salve did well last year against Union and Monclair State, but it was an off year for Union.  WNEC rolled all year except for a hiccup against Mass Maritime, only to get crushed by Salisbury in the playoffs.

The NEFC and the NESCAC need to expose themselves to outside compitition to even be considered.  NESCAC is what it is.  Extremely high academics (which dq's many interested better players) and football that is competitive inside thier small harbor.  The NEFC needs to follow the Salve route and venture outside of New England unless they want to continue to be surprised how good the other teams are once you go into the playoffs.

I liked Chesney when we visited Salve.  Even wanted my son to go there (but glad he didn't, he found a better fitting school) because he was so upbeat and seemed up for the challenge.  But when I was thinking it over after we left, I wondered how long he would stay there?  Would he be there in 4 years when the boy was a senior or was this a resume builder?

the LL and Empire 8 appeared to be much more competitive during our search.  That's football only.

You are missing the point.  I know about 100 college coaches personally, most of them in the Nescac and NEFC.  I know what motivates them.  Many choose to stay in the d3 coaching ranks because they like the area they live in.  They often times have wives who live and work (and make as much money as they do) in the area they coach in.  They aren't going to move to upstate New York and make their wives quit their jobs and move their families for a 50k max raise in pay.  I know in general that a nescac head coaching job is better than an NEFC job, and that an SEC head coaching job is better than an ACC job, and an IVY league job is better than a Big Sky job.

But when you say no one (and those are your exact words) is going to choose a nescac job over an NEFC job, you are plain wrong.   You can't igonre the alumni/family/location factor.

Lets put it this way.  Dick Farley had the chance to take (or apply for I should say) many d1-aa jobs over his career, including some higher paying jobs in the Ivy and Patriot leagues.  Why do you think he stayed?  Because of his family and because he had built a powerhouse.  He wasn't interested in moving along and possibly having to find another job/place to live if things didn't work out.  This is true for many other coaches in the d3 level as well.

Don't get me wrong, there are many coaches who want to get to that next level.  Choosing nescac schools over nefc schools would be a move in that direction.

[fulbakdad]

Where did I say noone would choose NESCAC coaching job over a NEFC coaching job.  Any coach in thier right mind would dive at that!  I'm not the one drinking the Cool Aid!

And you don't know what motivates these guys.  Unless you're the local football coach therapist!  They might say things to you in passing, but almost every one of them has ended up where they are due to the good/bad things that have happened to them in thier football coaching lives.  These are (or were) very competitive guys.  That's how they became head coaches.  But how many will never admit what they consider failures publicly?

Your arguments have wavered all over the place.  From the NESCAC/NEFC harboring many national contending teams (which they do not), to all it would take is one great coach to get them there (which it would not, it would take MUCH MUCH more)

While it probably sounds like I'm bashing both leagues I'm not trying to.  Each has it's place.  The kids that graduate from the NESCAC schools will be running the country soon, and the kids that are in the NEFC schools are continueing thier educations the best they can within thier own capabilities and abilities.  Both are very admirable.  But this is a football board.  And I've found you better have your ducks in line when you spout off.  lol......

[Jonny Utah]

Sorry, I got you confuse with lumbercat

banfan: It is great for chatting but no one in the NESCAC or anywhere else for that matter, would choose Endicott, Curry, or Plymouth over a NESCAC school.

Not true

lumbercat: The original premise here whch made no sense was that a coach may prefer a Head Coaching position at Endicott or Western New England above a NESCAC HC opportunity because these schools have less restictions that enable them to compete for a national title.


My original point had to do with why someone might take a certain job over another.  Pay and prestige is not the end all in what makes a coach decide to take a job somewhere.  And I do know what motivates them because I am close friends with a lot of them, including some nescac coaches.

[Jonny Utah]

Your arguments have wavered all over the place.  From the NESCAC/NEFC harboring many national contending teams (which they do not), to all it would take is one great coach to get them there (which it would not, it would take MUCH MUCH more)

Where did I say the NESCAC/NEFC harbored many national contending teams?  I said these schools have the base to do it.  How much different are these schools than schools like Pacific Lutheran, Albion, Rowan, Allegany, Lycoming, Bridgewater, Linfield, or Central Iowa?

Look at the carreers of guys like Ron Shipper, Larry Kehres, Jim Butterfield, Dick Farley and Lance Leipold.  How did these guys turn their programs into powerhouses and why did they stay? 

Then look at other guys like KC Keeler, Don Brown, GA Maguns, who also took average programs to powerhouse status.  Hell, what does Rowan have that Plymouth State doesn't.  Look at what Jerry Boyes did at Buff State with their facilities?

Al Bagnoli and tons of other great d3 coaches decided to move on, but many choose to stay for various reasons.

[fulbakdad]

What's the difference between the NEFC/NESCAC and those other teams?  Playing tough schedules every single year.  Playing out of conferance challenges the programs.  It's the same thing as comparing the Mass kids and the NH kids.  They are all kids, made up of the same things.  But why is there such a low percentage of NH kids playing after high school?  Cuz you tend to play at the level you get comfy in.  I can say that with experience.  Watched it with my own eyes!  Know what the coaches at the competitive schools say when you mention the above?  They will mostly say go NESCAC if you have the academic ability.  It will be great for you future.  But the others?  You get the eye roll.  If you are a player that is.

What does any of those other schools have that Plymouth doesn't?  Have you been to Plymouth State in the last 15 years?

[Jonny Utah]

What's the difference between the NEFC/NESCAC and those other teams?  Playing tough schedules every single year.  Playing out of conferance challenges the programs.  It's the same thing as comparing the Mass kids and the NH kids.  They are all kids, made up of the same things.  But why is there such a low percentage of NH kids playing after high school?  Cuz you tend to play at the level you get comfy in.  I can say that with experience.  Watched it with my own eyes!  Know what the coaches at the competitive schools say when you mention the above?  They will mostly say go NESCAC if you have the academic ability.  It will be great for you future.  But the others?  You get the eye roll.  If you are a player that is.

What does any of those other schools have that Plymouth doesn't?  Have you been to Plymouth State in the last 15 years?

You are missing the point.  Plenty of schools have horrible facilites until the right person gets there.  Coaches can get there and change entire programs.  Those coaches also make the schedules.  Many of those guys I mentioned changed athletic programs around, not just the football team.

Did you see the facilities at Rowan, Buff State, Brockport, Cortland, St. Lawrence, or RPI before certain coaches got there?

The percentage of NH kids playing after high school is the same as the percentage of Maine and Vermont kids playing after high school.  There just isn't that many of them.

I'm talking about coaches though, not kids.  Kids should never choose an NEFC school over a NESCAC school unless it was Coast Guard or MIT, and I've already said that.

[fulbakdad]

Holy Crap

the percentage of kids playing would be how many out of 1000 players move on.  So the percentage could be comparable no matter what state you compared it too.  NH, Maine, and Vermont are all much lower than Mass.  Then when you compare the Preps?  it's out of the park.  We played Cheshire two years ago and they had 5 boys go D1 just from that school alone!

You're just not gonna get the number of serious football players with the abilities needed to compete in those two leagues.  Just not gonna happen.  You'll have a couple here and there, but not enough depth to compete outside of your leagues.

[Jonny Utah]

Holy Crap

the percentage of kids playing would be how many out of 1000 players move on.  So the percentage could be comparable no matter what state you compared it too.  NH, Maine, and Vermont are all much lower than Mass.  Then when you compare the Preps?  it's out of the park.  We played Cheshire two years ago and they had 5 boys go D1 just from that school alone!

You're just not gonna get the number of serious football players with the abilities needed to compete in those two leagues.  Just not gonna happen.  You'll have a couple here and there, but not enough depth to compete outside of your leagues.

Are you comparing them to the percentage of Mass kids who also don't play football in college? How do you get those numbers?  I doubt it would be much different than any other state.  I've coached HS ball in Mass for almost 15 years.  Tons of all league players don't go on to play in college.

[Jonny Utah]

Cuz you tend to play at the level you get comfy in.  I can say that with experience.  Watched it with my own eyes!  Know what the coaches at the competitive schools say when you mention the above?  They will mostly say go NESCAC if you have the academic ability.  It will be great for you future.  But the others?  You get the eye roll.  If you are a player that is.

What does this mean? Comfy level?  Coaches at what competitive schools?  HS schools?  And whoever said kids should go to NEFC schools over NESCAC schools anyway?

[amh63]

Now that the discussion of "football" at the D3 level has moved to players versus coaches  and back again, I will add some input.  First, Union college was once among the schools that compose the present NESCAC.  Union decided that they wanted to go Div. 1 in ice hockey and left the conference. (Frank U. suggest that they were kicked out).  Now the question of kids selecting Coast Guard and/or MIT over a 'CAC' school....one is really mixing apples and orange here whether one is talking about football programs or quality of students.  The Coast Guard Academy provides a free ride!...for everyone and that is attractive.  Amherst in the old days played the CGA on a regular basis...even when they had an ex-pro coach Otto Graham(? on spelling here).  It was because of Otto's coaching approach(win at all cost)  that Amherst chose not to play the CGA.  Now with respect to MIT, students select MIT over "CAC' schools for many reasons......rest assure it is NOT due to the quality of the football program.