FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Nescacparent]

Banfan- You did refer to a hit and then described your perception of the response. This line of commentary on yesterday's games started with a reference  (mine) to a head to head hit. Thus I  continued the discussion in that vein.

[PolarCat]

I try and write carefully, reading carefully would be appreciated.

I have never given excuses for a loss.

If we had a kicker Amherst would have lost and you know that.

By the way, we lost at Amherst last year because the same kicker missed an extra point.

Okay, I was wrong.  I guess I do have a problem with reading comprehension after all.  Try as I may, I just cannot reconcile these four quotes.  I give up.  You win.

[banfan]

Context Polar Cat, context. Selective editing, really dumb, really amateurish.

You know, this is what dissapoints me so much about this site, no one talks about FOOTBAL

And by the way PolarCat, how do you think the kids on the Trinity team (ALL THE KIDS) feel when morons, yes morons, refer to Trinity as Hartford State? What do you think that is to a team, a locker room?
Maybe you did not say it but I can't recall you being a responsible grown up and saying  that a comment like that has no place on the NESCAC site. How do you think co-captain Mancini felt, you know the kid who was one of 18 finalists for best student athlete in the country, the player majoring in neuroscience and minoring in Spanish?

And how does one talk about FOOTBALL without talking about the offense the defense the specials teams (ya know 'kicking game')? How does one talk about strengths and weaknesses? How many times have I heard folks knock the Trinity QB? Yes by name!

All you want to do is talk about officials and sat scores of incoming football freshmen. I get it, you are a good loser, but still a .... .

Nescacparent, you can continue your line of discussion but that was not mine. MY POINT related to the whining of a winning fan and how I was supposed to be sympathetic to him. I VERY CLEARLY stated why I was not sympathetic. GOT IT?

[PolarCat]

For the record, I don't approve of anyone singling out a D3 player and piling on.  NFL?  Sure.  They are getting the paycheck and it comes with the territory.  D1?  Maybe.  If a kid accepts a full ride for 4 years and then does something really bone-headed, he may be fair game, particularly if the bone-headed move comes off the field.

Refs are definitely fair game.  If you're going to be paid, act professional.  Coaches "maybe", unless the Admissions Department makes it impossible to recruit the players you need to be competitive. 

But every team I ever played on, or any of my kids ever played on, won and lost as a team.  Kicker missed a PAT?  I'd argue it only mattered because the offense didn't score enough, or the defense allowed the opponents to score too often.   Goalie missed a save?  If that decided the game, it's as much on the strikers and the back line as the keeper.  Forward missed a free throw with no time on the clock?  Tough break, but he wasn't the only player on the court.

I wouldn't know about being a good loser.  I don't care that much.  As far as I'm concerned, the Lord's been pretty good to my family.  My kids are in colleges where they are getting a great education, they are able to play sports they love at a collegiate level, and I am able to allow them to "pay to play".  End of the day, that's all that really matters to me.  I'd be equally proud of my kid if he was at 0-7 Hamilton or at 7-0 Amherst. 

Let's let it drop.  You and I clearly have next-to-nothing in common in the way we look at football or parenting.  Hopefully you have some other Trinity parents who will pat you on the back and commend you for the way you played this.  Good luck to your son next week and next year.

[Gray Fox]

PolarCat, +k

I am only starting to lurk on this board.  A friend's son goes to a NESCAC school.
I like your last post.

I follow SCIAC sports.  There are always several posters who don't want Caltech playing basketball or baseball because they aren't competitive.  They forget that the value of playing sports goes way beyond the playing field.  The Caltech educators understand the value of teamwork and failure (and success).

[nescac2018fan]

Ok - I know the Trinity crowd has a problem discussing some real off field issues relating to admissions and such - So lets talk about real football issues:

1.  Officiating - It is not fair to the guys who play every week to have the officiating we see on the field - Where is the NESCAC Administration?  This is a very important issue that should not be sloughed off because this is D3 - these guys work hard and play hard and deserve better.

2.  Speaking of NESCAC Administration - is it too much to rework the schedule annually?   Frankly it is unfair for some teams to play the strength early in the year, while others have a cake walk early that allows them to work out the early season kinks.  Also, in regard to scheduling - is it too hard for someone to figure out how to rotate the 8 game schedule so that instead of a 2 on / 2 off schedule - each team would only miss one school once every 8 or 9 years?   I can only conclude the administration of the league as it relates to football doesn't want to do any heavy lifting to improve the conference -  Frankly, the answer would be a 9 game season - but since that does not seem to be in the cards, let's figure out a better scheduling process.

3.  While we are talking about football, isn't it time to admit this football conference is broken as it relates to competition?  A quick cumulative review of the past 15 seasons shows 6 teams below .500 -  Further, it shows that Hamilton has a 16% winning percentage with no winning seasons - In fact their high mark is 3 wins.  Tufts has 3 winning seasons (33% WP) and Bates (28%) and Bowdoin(29%) have 1 winning season in the last 15.   How about splitting the conference into  two 5 team divisions - with the non-division games being non-conference early in the season, which would allow teams to "work out the kinks" before playing a conference schedule -     It is clear to me these teams will not be competitive as most top line recruits are choosing not to go to these schools based on the history of losing - So let's try and figure out a way for more teams to have success on the football field?

[amh63]

N2018fan...wow, some out of the box...way out of the box thinking!  Like innovative thinking. Plus K
Was planning to post after my chores today....as the end of the CAC season approaches.  Will point out some thoughts as I gather mine for this SHORT week..for me as I head up to Homecoming early Thursday.
I found some numbers wrt to sports today in the WSJ.  I know, limited sports...but fine writers that provide  unique views of sports.  Here goes....
One article provides numbers of thr NFL ref crews wrt to yellow flags and the impact on the scores.  There is one crew that throws more flags than the rest so far this season...almost 19.  Lowest being just under 14.  The top yellow flag crew correlates to the highest points scored in their games.  The rest of the crew averages just under 14 flags.  Most of the differences impacts the visiting teams.
The top flag throwing game will handle the Monday Night Game it seems.
Another short article  points out that this season in big time College football....there has been 406 days since traditional football powers Michigan, Texas and Florida  all won on the same day.  The " drought" is the longest since  1980.  My take on this last point is that college football is changing.  New powers are rising along with the technical aspects of football.  I see the CAC changing too! In the season's to come I see more competative teams and new teams at the top...truly.

[nescac2018fan]

amh63-

I hope change would come ( was hoping for change in 2008 - got the wrong kind)  But I don't think so -  When there are so many choices now for top end D1 recruits - It is not surprising that the top tier end up in the SEC or in warm weather climes -

However, when it comes to D3 programs - where academics rates equally with football ( in the mind of an 18 year old) - the NESCAC is without peer - ( The true D3 football studs who value football over academics- do not choose the NESCAC - or the NESCAC does not choose them)  So in this scenario, where there are only 10 choices - who wins the recruiting wars?  ( Williams and Amherst for the true student athletes) ( Middlebury for the next tier - combo of athletics and academics)  This is not a knock on any other school academically - just reality if you looking for a marriage of great athletics and academics.  I think many great athletes choose  Trinity because of admissibility issues or want a city, or value football over academics -  Wesleyan may fit in this category as well - Certainly now with Whale in charge.

So , while I commend your optimism regarding future changes in the NESCAC - I would go long on the prospect of the next 15 years looking a lot like the last 15.

[Trin9-0]

Absolutely brutal loss for Trinity. I had stopped by practice earlier in the week and got an update on just how bad the injury situation was for Trin and about the switch to Jardine at QB. The Bants put up a great effort defensively but the yards they did gain on offense were purely smoke and mirrors. If not for the fumble recovery at the Amherst 11, I don't know if Trinity scores against a stout Jeff defense.

To lose on those two missed kicks, and extra point and a 24 yard field goal attempt, has to be crushing for the Trinity players and coaches. I wonder if punter Kyle Pulek will get the kicking duties this weekend in Middletown.

Trinity hasn't lost 3 straight games since 2000 (Midd, Amherst, Wes), which coincidentally is the last time the Bantams lost to Wesleyan. I'm hoping Trin can bounce-back and keep the winning streak over the Cards intact but it'll be tough considering their injuries at running back and inconsistency at QB.

Wes has a very good team who will be highly motivated to beat Trin and hope for a miracle by Williams. I don't have much faith in the Ephs however, and I expect a coronation of Amherst and quite possibly the end of the Kelton era.

[Trin9-0]

So in this scenario, where there are only 10 choices - who wins the recruiting wars?  ( Williams and Amherst for the true student athletes) ( Middlebury for the next tier - combo of athletics and academics)  This is not a knock on any other school academically - just reality if you looking for a marriage of great athletics and academics.  I think many great athletes choose  Trinity because of admissibility issues or want a city, or value football over academics -  Wesleyan may fit in this category as well - Certainly now with Whale in charge.

The academic discrepancy of NESCAC football rosters is not as wide as you think. Anyone playing in this league is intelligent and to typecast hundreds of student athletes based on which academically rigorous college they decided to attend is absurd.

[mariner75]

Tufts - Colby recap:

http://www.gotuftsjumbos.com/sports/fball/2014-15/releases/20141101dguq46

[PolarCat]

nescac2018Fan, I agree with many of your sentiments, but maybe not on all the details.  On the refs subject, I am with you all the way, and have been beating that drum mercilessly. 

On the subject of game rotation: the Little 3 and the CBB need to play each other every year, so that makes scheduling a wee bit more difficult.  And there are some other traditional rivalries that are important (at least  to the alumni with the checkbooks) even if there is not as much parity between the programs today as in the last century.  But I agree that NESCAC could do a better job here, and would love to see them move to a 9 game schedule.

WRT to the recruiting piece, I'm not sure the issue is that black and white: Let's say your son gets promises of Admissions support from two NESCAC's, Bowdoin and College X.

• The Bowdoin football program is less-than-stellar, but the Bowdoin degree carries a lot of cachet.  The Admissions standards are extremely high, but no one gets cut, and your son has a good chance of getting minutes as a freshman, and starting as a sophomore.
  
  
• College X is a football powerhouse, with great facilities and a legitimate shot of winning the CAC every year.  But they have 135 kids show up for pre-season, have to whittle that down to a 75 man roster, and there are 6 other players at your son's position.  He might be part of the program, but he's unlikely to get playing time till his junior year, and even then it may be only in the 4th quarter when they are up by 3 touchdowns.  And there's even a chance that come October he will be cut.

Which option has more appeal to your son?  Riding the pine in the prestige program?  Or getting to play in the school with the prestige degree?  As his father, which direction do you point him?

To further complicate the question, if your son can get into Bowdoin, he can probably also get into Dartmouth, Brown, or any of the other Ivies.  All of which have deeper pockets, better facilities, bigger rosters, and the perceived prestige of being Division I.  If your son can choose between College X, Bowdoin and Cornell, what would you advise him?  Or what if a great DI school like Colgate enters the picture with scholarship money?

I'm not sure that the best players pick their schools just because of the W-L records.  There are too many other factors in play.

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: When I was typing this, I was agreeing with nescac2018fan's initial post about the refs and the scheduling, and I was disagreeing (politely) with his comments about good athletes not considering schools with losing records.

I disagree with his subsequent post about "accessibility" and why athletes might choose one CAC over another.  Frankly, I think this whole topic of academic standards at Wes and Trin is just a load of BS.  Every program has at least one "dumb jock" and at least one "rocket scientist", and unless you have access to the Admissions file of every single NESCAC athlete, any speculation about whose standards are rigorous and whose are loosey-goosey is just uninformed gum flapping.  It's fine to say you don't like the field at the Coop, the way the Whale conducts himself on the sideline, or the way certain parents comport themselves here.  But implying that an entire team is full of academically challenged players is just wrong.  It's really no different than making a personal attack on one particular player.

In re-reading his post, I'm not sure nescac2018fan really meant to come across that way, but I don't blame the Trin parents for taking offense. 

Can we just play nice for the last week of the season?

[Bantsfan]

"- who wins the recruiting wars?  ( Williams and Amherst for the true student athletes) ( Middlebury for the next tier - combo of athletics and academics)  This is not a knock on any other school academically - just reality if you looking for a marriage of great athletics and academics.  I think many great athletes choose  Trinity because of admissibility issues or want a city, or value football over academics -  Wesleyan may fit in this category as well"

My son is a "true student athlete", who came out of high school as the captain of a State Champion football team and with an individual State championship in another sport under his belt, along with a (weighted) 4.13 gpa.  When he went to the Trinity coach he was asked what his class rank was (he was 26th I think out of 378 students??) and the coach asked him if that rank was part of his permanent records - because he didn't think it was high enough!  How can that be so at "Hartford High" I ask you?  He was accepted to NYU, WPI, and many other FINE academic schools and yet Hartford High wanted better grades?  So... I think a lot of the posters here ASSUME Trinity has lower standards because if they don't, how would you explain away the discrepancy in talent they acquire?  I have personal experience with their admissions and I am here to tell you it was not at all as you guys suggest. 
Maybe the true student athletes choose trinity because it's a great school and it has a history of excellence in football to go with it?  Maybe they won't choose Williams or Middlebury because when they went to watch a game they had to pull over at the entrance of the parking lot and get out and open their cooler to be inspected?  When we went to Middlebury to meet with the coaches, I told my son on the way home "...Unless you absolutely LOVE that school, do not even apply because I never want to make that drive ever again in my life!"  So, there are many reasons people choose different schools and it always sounds like sour grapes to me whenever anyone craps on the Trinity admissions policies.  Like I said, I actually have personal experience that attests to the contrary!  Do you?,... or are you repeating like a parrot what you hear other people say because it makes you feel superior? 
Yes, it is in a bad area, we get it!  So are a LOT of other great american institutions!   http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2010/09/13/most-dangerous-colleges-2010.html
My son is in his final year at Trinity and has never experienced any crime personally while one of his friends who goes to Bowdoin (which by the way is in a beautiful area!) had his apartment broken into with several thousands of $$ worth of electronics stolen.  http://bowdoinorient.com/article/9424   

It was a heart breaking loss on Saturday - when Banfan said "if we had a kicker we would have won and you know it", it was because it was TRINITY, Not Amherst who found themselves on the 8 yard line with 32 seconds to go... in position to win the game -  I don't think at that point you would have found many Amherst fans that would not have changed places with us, just as I don't think many Trinity fans would have wanted to be the one in the lead by 1 point with the other team on the 8...

Congrats to all the boys - they are ALL great students and great competitors and I hope as the power shifts, as it is apt to do over time, that the rest of you do not find yourselves being disparaged for letting in the riff raff ...as you MUST have done in order to be so good!

And for the record - it was not "reality" as you put it, it was certainly a knock academically on other schools - the sugarcoat you put on it doesn't make it any sweeter

[nescac2018fan]

Polar Cat-

I think you are makin'  my point -  I would always and have always advised my boys to pick the best school they can get into and to let their athletic talents get them into a school they otherwise would not have gotten into - But, in all fairness my guys , while good players and strong contributors were not "program changers" -  I think we use the term student athlete - but let's face it, some kids are athlete- students and generally, they are not choosing Bowdoin over Amherst, Williams, and maybe not even Trinity.   Even though Bowdoin is the equal to or superior to most NESCAC schools.     Thanks for the words on the scheduling - I understand the CBB (Based on historical performance,  perhaps the only thing the Maine schools play for?) and the Little 3 - but I am sure something better could be done -

and to Bants fan - Stop personalizing everything on this site regarding Trinity - It is a great school with a lot of great kids - but seriously, the recruiting is different there as is the emphasis on winning football games - if it wasn't different - how would you explain an 83% winning % over the last 15 years?  Is the coaching so much better there - No - games are won and lost on the field by players - and Trinity gets great players - some academically strong enough to go to any school and others that would not be accepted at other NESCAC schools.   This was made clear to us when going through the recruiting process at both Trinity and Wesleyan.

[Bantsfan]

I did explain it - maybe the kids choose it BECAUSE of their winning history!  Great player become great players in part because they hate to lose!  So wouldn't it stand to reason that if they are smart enough to get into a NESCAC school, they would want to go to a school that wins?  It could also be explained by how much the players enjoy their stay on the overnight visits - or the quality of the recruiters, distance from home, rapport with the coaches or any number of other factors.

Amherst looks like they are starting a little "championship streak" of their own.  Using your logic, if their streak continues, must we all assume it has become Amherst High?  There is no way they can maintain a winning streak based on the attraction of the winning streak itself so it must be that they are letting the lesser students in to Amherst High - correct?