FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[jknezek]

It must be the holidays, because it's time for the annual discussion of NESCAC football's lack of participation in the post-season!

I don't have a strong view either way (I think a more realistic goal which would improve the NESCAC experience is to ditch the Week One scrimmage in place of a ninth game for all teams, something which MIGHT actually happen if enough NESCAC Presidents got behind it).  But I don't think the status quo regarding the playoffs is incomprehensible or unprincipled.

First, football takes a dramatically disproportionate number of TIPS for NESCAC schools already (I think something like 12-16 out of 66-72 for ALL sports combined), and for such small schools (typically 2000 students or less), fielding any sort of competitive football team already takes up a substantial proportion of the males in each frosh class.  You can have a great tennis team, or basketball team, or soccer team by letting in just a few star players per year.  Football you need a dozen or more each and every year.  If there was a desire to compete with other D3 football programs, that would require even more slots dedicated to football players, most likely.  Many of the D3 football powers like St. Thomas and Whitewater are absolutely massive by comparison, so letting in a few extra guys for football doesn't have a material impact on the composition of the first-year class the way it does at every NESCAC school save for maybe Tufts and Wesleyan.   

Second, it's not just the number of slots for football, it's the size of the concessions for each slot.  It's easy to find elite (at the D3 level) runners or tennis players with NESCAC-level credentials.  They hardly require any concessions by admissions at all.  It's tougher in some of the team sports, but still, there are plenty of ace basketball and soccer players out there with 1300 plus SATs, etc.  And maybe one player per year per sport will be a real stretch for admissions.  Even under the current regime, admissions has to reallllly stretch for football in ways it simply does not need to for any other sport (save probably men's ice hockey).  There just isn't a huge population of star football players with elite academic credentials to choose from, and many of those who exist are always going to pick the Ivy League.  Again, if NESCAC wanted to be remotely competitive on a national stage in football, it would require the types of admissions concessions that these institutions won't ever be willing to make. 

Third, football is in an entirely different stratosphere in terms of costs -- traveling to playoff games (for whichever school made it) and extending the season would be a very costly endeavor, without the sort of revenues to offset those costs that you have at a higher level.  Big difference between bringing a 12 person roster with a few coaches to the NCAA's vs. a 75-person roster with huge coaching staffs and loads of equipment and huge insurance and medical costs.

Fourth, unlike most (basically all, although hockey and soccer have some issues too) other sports, the longer the season, the more practices, and the more football games are played, the greater the risk of long-term brain damage/injuries to those participating. 

So, while I can see arguments either way for NESCAC participating in the NCAAs, there are very good reasons why football is distinguished from other sports as a matter of policy.  Especially when realistically not even the best NESCAC teams in history would have been remotely competitive vs. the elite D3 powers, and there is no possible way they ever could be without dramatic changes to admissions practices.

I agree with all of this except the bolded part. The playoff travel is paid for by the NCAA in all sports.

[All NESCAC]

It must be the holidays, because it's time for the annual discussion of NESCAC football's lack of participation in the post-season!

I don't have a strong view either way (I think a more realistic goal which would improve the NESCAC experience is to ditch the Week One scrimmage in place of a ninth game for all teams, something which MIGHT actually happen if enough NESCAC Presidents got behind it).  But I don't think the status quo regarding the playoffs is incomprehensible or unprincipled.

First, football takes a dramatically disproportionate number of TIPS for NESCAC schools already (I think something like 12-16 out of 66-72 for ALL sports combined), and for such small schools (typically 2000 students or less), fielding any sort of competitive football team already takes up a substantial proportion of the males in each frosh class.  You can have a great tennis team, or basketball team, or soccer team by letting in just a few star players per year.  Football you need a dozen or more each and every year.  If there was a desire to compete with other D3 football programs, that would require even more slots dedicated to football players, most likely.  Many of the D3 football powers like St. Thomas and Whitewater are absolutely massive by comparison, so letting in a few extra guys for football doesn't have a material impact on the composition of the first-year class the way it does at every NESCAC school save for maybe Tufts and Wesleyan.   

Second, it's not just the number of slots for football, it's the size of the concessions for each slot.  It's easy to find elite (at the D3 level) runners or tennis players with NESCAC-level credentials.  They hardly require any concessions by admissions at all.  It's tougher in some of the team sports, but still, there are plenty of ace basketball and soccer players out there with 1300 plus SATs, etc.  And maybe one player per year per sport will be a real stretch for admissions.  Even under the current regime, admissions has to reallllly stretch for football in ways it simply does not need to for any other sport (save probably men's ice hockey).  There just isn't a huge population of star football players with elite academic credentials to choose from, and many of those who exist are always going to pick the Ivy League.  Again, if NESCAC wanted to be remotely competitive on a national stage in football, it would require the types of admissions concessions that these institutions won't ever be willing to make. 

Third, football is in an entirely different stratosphere in terms of costs -- traveling to playoff games (for whichever school made it) and extending the season would be a very costly endeavor, without the sort of revenues to offset those costs that you have at a higher level.  Big difference between bringing a 12 person roster with a few coaches to the NCAA's vs. a 75-person roster with huge coaching staffs and loads of equipment and huge insurance and medical costs.

Fourth, unlike most (basically all, although hockey and soccer have some issues too) other sports, the longer the season, the more practices, and the more football games are played, the greater the risk of long-term brain damage/injuries to those participating. 

So, while I can see arguments either way for NESCAC participating in the NCAAs, there are very good reasons why football is distinguished from other sports as a matter of policy.  Especially when realistically not even the best NESCAC teams in history would have been remotely competitive vs. the elite D3 powers, and there is no possible way they ever could be without dramatic changes to admissions practices.

Nescac1....all very good points....and as all with ties to the NESCAC know football playoffs wont be happening for many of the reasons you stated above....add to it that most NESCAC alums are not up in arms about not competing in the football playoffs, however adding a 9th NESCAC game is something most would like as has been pointed out many times on this site....and I'm sure most NESCAC players would view an 8/9 game schedule perfectly fine....extending the season another 2, 3 or 4 weeks would be an academic hurdle most of the players would not want to attempt....sounds good in theory, but the reality is 8/9 game schedule is long enough given the academic rigors at these schools.

[amh63]

I previously posted that the Conference position on Football is not easily understood.  I will try to clarify a bit...from my perspective and my Amherst experience over a period of time before there were DI to D3 classifications and a systematic NCAA post season arrangement.
First, it is not about the money or cost.  Like the Ancient Eight...the Ivies...the NESCAC schools are very well off when compared to schools going into post-season play in Football.
Second, it is basically about TIME.  The trade-off of academics and sport activities on the student college experience.
Student-athletes come to Amherst and other CAC schools for the academic experience first. Some pick the D3 level over say the D1 level of the Ivies because they want to play several sports while in college.  Football players come to Amherst to seek the best education that they hope to receive via their football abilities.  One freshman player's father relayed to me that his son turned down a D1 offer for Amherst because  he wanted to play both football AND baseball in college.  Even in the IVIES, you are expected to play only one sport.
In Football, a 9-game schedule will not require compromises to the academic schedule or the multi-sport players and the Winter sports.  Any post season or out of conference play would require more and earlier practice time.  Even now in winter sports, Amherst teams are playing teams that have started practice at least several weeks earlier and played more contests.
It must be noted that before there was a NESCAC, Amherst would play Div1 schools in a number of sports.  Amherst would play Harvard and UCONN in soccer as an example.  Amherst dropped UCONN, not vice versa,  The coach stated that it was not because UCONN was Div1, but that UCONN was a National Power at the time.  It was not fair for his players to compete on the field.  Amherst dropped Harvard because of Harvard's Coach actions.
A last story, hopefully to help explain further the NESCAC.
College baseball started between two CAC schools.  Yet, baseball in the NCAA post season goes for a very long time,imo.
Amherst has had limited success in the post-season for awhile.  There has been posted stories recently of the efforts by staff to pick up and return players from post season game sites in order to take exams at Amherst.  No slack given.
In the late 90's, I watched a post-season game in Springfield with a friend.  I asked my friend and another father a pointed question....would their sons attend graduation if it conflicted with a game.  Both fathers, one who was a full prof at an IVY school, answered that they would leave it up to their sons.  Both players who were starters attended graduation, their playing days over and the start of their life after college begun.  Recently, I spoke to my friend and his wife at a sporting event at Amherst.  He updated me with the news that his baseball playing son has recently returned to the States, in the Midwest.  His son had spent time in China in a financial position but needed to return to the states because of health....air quality in Shanghai was affecting him.  In any case, there maybe a chance that his oldest son would drop by to see Amherst play in their new Baseball facility....paid for by alums .

[warriorcat]

It must be the holidays, because it's time for the annual discussion of NESCAC football's lack of participation in the post-season!

I don't have a strong view either way (I think a more realistic goal which would improve the NESCAC experience is to ditch the Week One scrimmage in place of a ninth game for all teams, something which MIGHT actually happen if enough NESCAC Presidents got behind it).  But I don't think the status quo regarding the playoffs is incomprehensible or unprincipled.

First, football takes a dramatically disproportionate number of TIPS for NESCAC schools already (I think something like 12-16 out of 66-72 for ALL sports combined), and for such small schools (typically 2000 students or less), fielding any sort of competitive football team already takes up a substantial proportion of the males in each frosh class.  You can have a great tennis team, or basketball team, or soccer team by letting in just a few star players per year.  Football you need a dozen or more each and every year.  If there was a desire to compete with other D3 football programs, that would require even more slots dedicated to football players, most likely.  Many of the D3 football powers like St. Thomas and Whitewater are absolutely massive by comparison, so letting in a few extra guys for football doesn't have a material impact on the composition of the first-year class the way it does at every NESCAC school save for maybe Tufts and Wesleyan.   

Second, it's not just the number of slots for football, it's the size of the concessions for each slot.  It's easy to find elite (at the D3 level) runners or tennis players with NESCAC-level credentials.  They hardly require any concessions by admissions at all.  It's tougher in some of the team sports, but still, there are plenty of ace basketball and soccer players out there with 1300 plus SATs, etc.  And maybe one player per year per sport will be a real stretch for admissions.  Even under the current regime, admissions has to reallllly stretch for football in ways it simply does not need to for any other sport (save probably men's ice hockey).  There just isn't a huge population of star football players with elite academic credentials to choose from, and many of those who exist are always going to pick the Ivy League.  Again, if NESCAC wanted to be remotely competitive on a national stage in football, it would require the types of admissions concessions that these institutions won't ever be willing to make. 

Third, football is in an entirely different stratosphere in terms of costs -- traveling to playoff games (for whichever school made it) and extending the season would be a very costly endeavor, without the sort of revenues to offset those costs that you have at a higher level.  Big difference between bringing a 12 person roster with a few coaches to the NCAA's vs. a 75-person roster with huge coaching staffs and loads of equipment and huge insurance and medical costs.

Fourth, unlike most (basically all, although hockey and soccer have some issues too) other sports, the longer the season, the more practices, and the more football games are played, the greater the risk of long-term brain damage/injuries to those participating. 

So, while I can see arguments either way for NESCAC participating in the NCAAs, there are very good reasons why football is distinguished from other sports as a matter of policy.  Especially when realistically not even the best NESCAC teams in history would have been remotely competitive vs. the elite D3 powers, and there is no possible way they ever could be without dramatic changes to admissions practices.

Well considered and written, Nescac1.

As a Nescac parent and a Middlebury athlete who played in the first years of NESCAC in the 1970's, I support your observations.  I have been following NESCAC athletics  for nearly forty years and you are spot on.  Admissions and academics are the two most important points to make.

[NewtoNescac]

I was told from a very reliable source at Hamilton that they will be proposing a 9th game. They would also like to see the schedule changed each year, while maintaining the rivalries, ie. Williams/Amherst as the last game for both.

[amh63]

NewToNescac ....Good to hear!  Especially since Hamilton will have its NEW prez take office in June, I believe.  Now it would be good to hear from a Bowdoin poster or more wrt to Bowdoin's new Prez...who has stated he wanted to "take a look and listen tour".....my phrasing here.  With a 9 game schedule, all football playing schools will play each other....therefore, what is the rational for a rotation of schedule while still maintaining long time rivalries?

[PolarCat]

Some schools start each season with 2 or 3 really tough games.  Conversely, some have "easy" opponents.  I'd prefer to see the schedule mixed up each year, just like the NFL's.

[amh63]

PolarCat...I remember that argument now....Thanks.  However, there is the always the determination of "easy" opponents that could be in flux on a yearly basis.....making a changing/ rotating front loaded schedule an undesirable  crap shoot...via a headquarter bureaucrat!....disclosure- the Nescac head is an Amherst alum who is now mad at me, I'm sure.
In any case, Bates or Hamilton would be nice long trips for Amherst in the early Fall vice in late Fall via possible snow storms...presently.  Yes...self interest here .

[OldCardinal]

A little NESCAC history ...  from the start of the conference in 1971 until 1993, only individual athletes were allowed to participate in NCAA championships.  Teams could not go.  That changed in the fall of 1993 for all sports except football.  They began allowing participation in NCAA championships on a trial basis.  Once that cat was out of the bag there was no putting it back in and now NESCAC regularly competes for national titles in most sports.  Round robin scheduling and formal league championships started in 1999.  The presidents' fear in having conference standings and allowing NCAA play was that it would ramp up pressure to win - and thus pressure on admissions.  Both have happened without question but, as I said, there is no turning back now.  Football may get the ninth game (I hope) -although they have been trying for years without any luck.  Perhaps enough change in presidents will allow that now.  That said, I don't think NCAA play for football will ever happen in our lifetimes.  I don't think any of the coaches really care about that for reasons already well explained.

[amh63]

OldCardinal...Thanks for joining the conversation here.  Plus K to you....for bringing a better time frame to the plate wrt to post season team participation.  I believe there were two Trial Periods leading up to all teams except Football allowed to compete in the post season.
I'm assumming that the long serving Wesleyan Prez will support a 9 game schedule.  My concerns is that Conn College who also has a new Prez...from Brown...gets a vote.  Do not know where Williams and Bowdoin stand on a ninth game.  Middlebury also has a recent installed President?  In any case, would be nice to hear from alums of those schools on the matter...best guess/ shot.  Since Williams is in a Capital Campaign for money and Amherst is preparing for one, I'm hoping that our Prezs will be supportive.

[PolarCat]

Sadly, six months into his tenure, Bowdoin's Clayton Rose has been largely invisible.  He's founded a Bias Incident Group to "create a bias incident protocol for the College", and hosted a Town Hall meeting with the title "Why do issues of race matter if I'm white?", but from what I can tell, he hasn't done much else.

When the Sailing Team hosted a costume party, certain members of the community were offended by some costumes ("cultural appropriation" the snowflakes wailed), and the Administration subjected parents to windy, blustery emails.  Yet the same Administration has been damnably silent in the recent series of rape / sexual assaults on campus.  The message we got was the Rose and his team care deeply about the snowflakes' feelings, but the safety of our daughters?  Not so much.

Rose is no Barry Mills, and I think we're just kidding ourselves if we hope he'll take an interest in football. 

[NESCACGrad]

I've not posted in at least two years.  As a Wes grad from the mid-80's, I recall that Coast Guard and WPI were common football opponents for the Cards during those years.  Kinda strange that now those teams don't play the NESCACs.

In any event, my son was one of the lucky ones to have been admitted ED at Amherst for football a few weeks back.  We look forward to being immersed in the NESCAC culture over the next four years!  Given the passion that is displayed on these boards, we are crossing our fingers for a good experience! 

Happy holidays!

[PolarCat]

NESCACGrad, welcome back!  I checked your prior posts, and your insights into the Kelton / Creighton recruiting prowess were illuminating.

Is the son who just committed to Amherst the same one you wrote about 2 years ago?  If not, where did his older brother go, and how has his experience been?

[NESCACGrad]

PolarCat, funny you should ask. . . .I have not posted in two years because my oldest son did NOT end up going to a NESCAC.  He is currently a sophomore olineman at Davidson.  While the football team has had its challenges, he loves his school and his teammates, and while it's not a NESCAC, the weather is usually better (although not this week  ).

It's my second son who will be attending Amherst in the fall.  While he got some Div I and Div II looks like his older brother, at the end of the day, he did not want the grind of the Div I football experience.  If not Amherst, he likely would have ended up at Washington and Lee.  We are from Northern VA, and while the allure of the cheaper in-state alternatives was attractive (UVA and W&M), there was no way either of my two older sons could have played football at that high a level. 

I find the talk here about the 8 game schedule and the lack of playoff opportunities for NESCAC football to be quite interesting - especially given that several of the high academic Div III schools that compete with the NESCACs for recruits all tout those reasons for why recruits should go to their schools instead!  Johns Hopkins and W&L, in particular, distinguish themselves from the NESCACs in this fashion.  I guess for a certain recruit, a longer schedule may be a selling point; for my son, it was never an issue.

[polbear73]

Sadly, six months into his tenure, Bowdoin's Clayton Rose has been largely invisible.  He's founded a Bias Incident Group to "create a bias incident protocol for the College", and hosted a Town Hall meeting with the title "Why do issues of race matter if I'm white?", but from what I can tell, he hasn't done much else.

When the Sailing Team hosted a costume party, certain members of the community were offended by some costumes ("cultural appropriation" the snowflakes wailed), and the Administration subjected parents to windy, blustery emails.  Yet the same Administration has been damnably silent in the recent series of rape / sexual assaults on campus.  The message we got was the Rose and his team care deeply about the snowflakes' feelings, but the safety of our daughters?  Not so much.

Rose is no Barry Mills, and I think we're just kidding ourselves if we hope he'll take an interest in football.

PolarCat:  I think your reading of the current situation is spot on, at least from this alumnus' standpoint, particularly the last paragraph.  President Mills, despite Bowdoin's woeful record in football, was supportive of the program, at least outwardly, and it is disappointing that President Rose has seemingly remained silent on collegiate sports in general as well as the other, more important issues that you mentioned. 

I strongly hope that this early going of President Rose's tenure is not an omen for the future; if he can't take an effective stand on the most important issue of students' safety, what hope is there that he'll fix something as mundane as the football program?  President Rose has some big shoes to fill.