FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[gridiron]

Some schools are more willing than others to deviate somewhat from the prescribed bands.

[amh63]

JEFFFAN.....you found and linked the Bowdoin articles I mentioned earlier wrt to present admission Athletic rules/system.  Plus K
To stick my nose into a point of prep school wrt admission that WCD and PolarCat posted on...I will point the misunderstanding in the use of prep school. Many student athletics attend private schools, Catholic  based schools and other religious based schools for many reasons.  Many like Exerter, Andover, Deerfield for generations would provide fine student athletics to the Ivies and the present Nescac schools.  There are a slew of them in the D.C. And Baltimore areas.  In most recent generations, these schools have also been a place to take HS graduates that need a year of post graduate studies to improve their admission chances to more selective colleges.  These HS graduates therefore take a "prep" year...often in a private/prep school. 
Going down the football rosters of the CAC schools, one sees a very large number coming from a private/ prep school.  Several examples of talented players at Amherst.  One of the best MBB players in MA. took an extra year of study at a well known Prep school in NE and he is a member of the class of 2020.  The present starting SR. QB at Amherst has a younger brother who is a Soph WR on the team.  The brothers connected for two TDs in the Bowdoin game, I believe.  In HS, they were separated by a year.  I was in Alumni Gym at Amherst when I bumped into a bunch of HS age students hanging around.  They were friends of the above cited WR who was being interviewed.  The outcome of the interview was the WR brother went to a prep school.
The situation in the DC/Md area is even " muddy'ere still".  Many talented athletes are sought after by private schools for their teams.  These "recruits" graduate and are admitted to all levels of colleges...Big Ten, Ivies, Nescac, etc.
Hope, I did not confuse this board while trying to clarify a phrase/term.

[Nescacman]

Now back to our regular programming...word out of Purple Moose land is that QB Berlutti's MRI was negative and he hopes to play in the weekend's (only) big game at Middlebury. Berlutti likes to run around a bit (second on the team in rushing) but with a "deep bone bruise", we think his mobility will be limited and could have an impact on how we handicap this one. Stay tuned...

[JEFFFAN]

JEFFFAN.....you found and linked the Bowdoin articles I mentioned earlier wrt to present admission Athletic rules/system.  Plus K
To stick my nose into a point of prep school wrt admission that WCD and PolarCat posted on...I will point the misunderstanding in the use of prep school. Many student athletics attend private schools, Catholic  based schools and other religious based schools for many reasons.  Many like Exerter, Andover, Deerfield for generations would provide fine student athletics to the Ivies and the present Nescac schools.  There are a slew of them in the D.C. And Baltimore areas.  In most recent generations, these schools have also been a place to take HS graduates that need a year of post graduate studies to improve their admission chances to more selective colleges.  These HS graduates therefore take a "prep" year...often in a private/prep school. 
Going down the football rosters of the CAC schools, one sees a very large number coming from a private/ prep school.  Several examples of talented players at Amherst.  One of the best MBB players in MA. took an extra year of study at a well known Prep school in NE and he is a member of the class of 2020.  The present starting SR. QB at Amherst has a younger brother who is a Soph WR on the team.  The brothers connected for two TDs in the Bowdoin game, I believe.  In HS, they were separated by a year.  I was in Alumni Gym at Amherst when I bumped into a bunch of HS age students hanging around.  They were friends of the above cited WR who was being interviewed.  The outcome of the interview was the WR brother went to a prep school.
The situation in the DC/Md area is even " muddy'ere still".  Many talented athletes are sought after by private schools for their teams.  These "recruits" graduate and are admitted to all levels of colleges...Big Ten, Ivies, Nescac, etc.
Hope, I did not confuse this board while trying to clarify a phrase/term.

Right on target, AMH63, re the prep schools.  Any more the prep schools are a place for a college or more likely a university - read Ivies - to have a student athlete go to get one more year of academics under his/her belt before moving on to college.   The Ivies "place" dozens of student athletes into the best prep schools in New England each year in multiple sports, all with the commitment that they will be admitted to the college or university for the following year assuming that they keep their grades up, etc.   I had three sons play sports in college - the oldest was informed by a very good Ivy in that particular sport that if he went to Lawrenceville for a year he was in.   Without that extra year, not in.   So it is an informed practice for the Ivies and to a lesser extent the NESCAC.

[PolarCat]

There are kids who need a little extra buffing and polishing to get into the college of their dreams, and take a PG (postgraduate) year in a prep school.  Some prep schools really cater to this market - in fact, Bridgeton Academy in Maine is a school that ONLY provides a one year PG experience.  There are no FY's, sophomores, juniors or seniors at Bridgton, just PG's toiling away to get into a better college than their 4 year HS record might permit.

Bridgeton has clearly found its own, perfect little niche market.  I have no idea how successful they are in their mission (I can't remember the last time I saw Bridgeton Academy on an Ivy or NESCAC roster), but clearly they are filling a void in the market.

[westcoastDad]

Polar Cat

Transfer requirements are usually unpublished and lower than "published freshman" requirements that we see in U.S. World and News

Case in point:  it's known here in California that the easier way to get into a UCLA, UCSB, UCBerkeley etc is to transfer from a JUCO. 

At USC many alumni kids are given the option of going to an approved school  (one is even in France!) to study for 1 year.  Keep your GPA above say 3.25 and you're allowed in as a sophomore.

This allows schoolS to circumvent the highly published FRESHMAN CLASS GPA AND SAT numbers that are so highly scrutinized.

I'm not sure how that applis to PG kids.  Not sure if they are considered transfers or high school applicants or PG applicants.  But, I'm guessing there is a loophole in the mix. 

I just cannot believe that these kids are getting 29-32 ACT scores.  They could be playing at Duke or an Ivy.  32 is equal to over 2100 on SAT.  They are smart kids....but I wouldn't think they would choose Bowdoin over a Princeton? 

Lots of factors like playing time.  I get that.  But no need to do PREP if kid is already that bright

uote author=PolarCat link=topic=4146.msg1757196#msg1757196 date=1475587886]

Don't let those "admissions" numbers fool ya.  Lots of these kids are either transfers or have gone to prep schools prior.  The numbers seen on the Internet are for the incoming freshmen "straight outta high school"

Afraid I am not following you.  Both my kids went to prep school, and both went through the exact same Admissions process as their public school peers.  Please elaborate on how you think their process was somehow different?
[/quote]

[polbear73]

westcoastDad:  Over the years, many student athletes have picked NESCAC schools over the Ivies, Duke, Georgetown, etc for many reasons.  Believe it, these kids are putting up those scores. 

[amh63]

I am getting the feeling that posters here are losing a little bit of sight on the why the student athlete may chose a particular school....with assistance of the parents .  Getting into SATs, etc.  is getting into the weeds,IMO, on the topic in hand.
I will relate a personal story on the matter of a women BB player of talent.  The young lady attended National Cathederal School for Girls in DC....a ritzy small private school.  The school's team was ok.  The subject played AUU ball, stood 6'4" and played well.  Her father, a very prominent lawyer, who many considered the top Supreme Court lawyer in the country, took her on the tour of the Ivies.  The subject could academically get into any school of her choosing.  The only school eliminated was Yale, due to concerns about New Haven.  Yes, she looked at Amherst, her father's school and preference. The young lady played at Princeton.  Her father and I discussed her choice...we worked together on Admission matters in DC for Amherst.  Her father was amazed that Princeton from the get go had her carry a basketball ball while attending classes....yes, an one sport only student in the Ivies.  Finally, I asked her father what was the tipping point between Amherst and Princeton...she did not need a tip or scholarship for college .  His answer was a bit around about with a smile.  I paraphrase here....my daughter is 6'4", there are more boys at Princeton than at Amherst.  A father's answer that I could understand.
There are two back stories here.  The subject has a younger brother and sister.  Her brother was a very good BB at St. Albans School in DC.  In a game against a top public HS in DC, he was a dominant player and scorer.  The young man was basically a bench player at Amherst.  The younger sister is also an Amherst alum.  The second story is about the subject's father.  He was in the news in a recent Supreme Court case dealing with the Un of Texas policy on admissions...yes that one again.  The father was the lawyer for the lady denied admission to the Un of Texas.  He took the case pro bono...for free/without fee.  It is ironic in that the lawyer for the other side in the case is an Amherst alum and a parent of an alum.
Hope I did not put anyone to sleep...just another "angle" in a complex admission subject.

[PolarCat]

westcoastDad:  Over the years, many student athletes have picked NESCAC schools over the Ivies, Duke, Georgetown, etc for many reasons.  Believe it, these kids are putting up those scores.

My daughter is a case in point.  She chose Bowdoin over one of ths schools polbear73 mentioned for a variety of reasons:  The chance to study abroad, the chance to start as a FY, the ability to have a more balanced college experience than if shed been the indentured servant of a D1 program.  All of these hapoened and she has no regrets.

[lumbercat]

No diss on West Coast Dad at all but I think our beloved and esteemed NESCAC is viewed a bit differently by many in some places outside of New England like the West Coast, Southwest and Southeast. The NESCAC is just not as well known though that is changing over time.

[westcoastDad]

Thanks Lumber.  And you're correct. NESCAC is great. And still can be unknown in many areas.  The kids all choose for an assortment of well thought out reasons. 

The great thing is that in today's world that info is gotten to them so much easier.  I didn't even realize that I had received multiple letters from most of the NESCAC schools when I was a HS junior back in 1980.  I knew the bigger names like Stanford, Notre Dame, Penn State, etc.  But, over here the D3 schools like Occidental, Claremont etc just don't carry the same street cred for a public schools graduate whose parents graduated from HBCUschool.   
I'm sure had we dug further....but looking back...we didn't. 
Nowadays, kids see the rankings in a quick finger swipe on their phone.  As my son told me when he decided on Amherst, "Dad, your school (USC) doesn't compare academically, I want to go AWAY to school, and I want a better opportunity to play."

Then he dropped the microphone lol.

[ColbyFootballDad]

 I just wondered if there were REAL and UNFAIR advantages that created the Haves and Have Nots of NESCAC football. I don't believe there are any that a "motivated"  team of Administration, Coaching, Alumni and Admissions folks can't cooperatively overcome in a matter of 4 years or so. In Summary and stating the obvious it appears that the NESCAC Football programs that have done it best have the best cooperation among those sometimes moving parts.

Watching Colby Closely for progress.

[JEFFFAN]

I just wondered if there were REAL and UNFAIR advantages that created the Haves and Have Nots of NESCAC football. I don't believe there are any that a "motivated"  team of Administration, Coaching, Alumni and Admissions folks can't cooperatively overcome in a matter of 4 years or so. In Summary and stating the obvious it appears that the NESCAC Football programs that have done it best have the best cooperation among those sometimes moving parts.

Watching Colby Closely for progress.

If anything - and we get into tricky territory here - the HAVES, in general, have a disadvantage because they have higher admission standards than the rest of the NESCAC.   That would at least be true for Williams and Amherst, if one goes only by SAT scores, and Middlebury to a very small lesser degree.   Bowdoin would be considered a HAVE NOT in terms of football but definitely a higher admission standard than many other schools in the NESCAC.

The answer is that harder academic admission standards is not a factor in why NESCAC schools are HAVES or HAVE NOTS in terms of football and other sports.   Amherst is arguably as difficult to get into as any of the NESCAC schools yet has been very successful in football and other athletics.   Williams the same, despite its current downturn in football, as the Ephs win the Director's Cup every year.  Same for Bowdoin and Middlebury, which by SAT scores would be next in line.  I would actually argue that the better the academic standard the more it helps these schools athletically because then they can go toe to toe with the Ivies.   

[gridiron]

Jefffan--agree this topic can become sensitive to many on this board.  The fact is in recent years not all of the schools adhere stringently to the specifics of the bands. With support from their administrations, some are able to be more creative than others (super-scoring, etc.).  Players that coaches are unable to successfully assist through the admission process at some schools, can and do end up on rosters where higher band requirements would suggest otherwise. This happens each recruiting season.

is not the only factor in the bifurcation seen within the league, but it is most certainly a contributing factor.

[JEFFFAN]

Jefffan--agree this topic can become sensitive to many on this board.  The fact is in recent years not all of the schools adhere stringently to the specifics of the bands. With support from their administrations, some are able to be more creative than others (super-scoring, etc.).  Players that coaches are unable to successfully assist through the admission process at some schools, can and do end up on rosters where higher band requirements would suggest otherwise. This happens each recruiting season.

is not the only factor in the bifurcation seen within the league, but it is most certainly a contributing factor.

In the Ivies, each summer the admissions offices from all of the schools trade information with each other on all TIPS for athletics so that there is 100% transparency.  Harvard knows who Princeton admitted and what the profile of each admit looks like.   This is the honor system that allows them to stay within their collective boundaries.   My understanding - but this is all hearsay - is that the NESCAC does the same thing.   I believe that Tom Parker, from Williams then Amherst, recommended the process when he came to Amherst (which was seriously in the athletics dumps at that time) to ensure that there was a high level of self-regulation among all of the schools.   It would be interesting to learn whether this is fact or hearsay in the NESCAC - I know for a fact that it happens in the Ivies.