FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[westcoastDad]

As far as the placekicker theme of being a "football player"....how many are in the Hall of Fame at Canton?

Juan Ortiz had an excellent baseball career.  People discount his HOF credentials because he was a DH. 

[westcoastDad]

N.F.O. the Amherst PK is quietly amazing.  He's already 1-1 from outside of 50.  Hasn't missed yet this season if I'm correct. 

AMH63?

[NESCAC.Football.Observer]

N.F.O. the Amherst PK is quietly amazing.  He's already 1-1 from outside of 50.  Hasn't missed yet this season if I'm correct. 

AMH63?

John Rak:

http://athletics.amherst.edu/sports/fball/2016-17/players/johnrak6zdy?view=gamelog&pos=k

He's 9 for 10 for PAT's and 5 for 5 for FG's, with a long of 52, a 34, and the other 3 being 20 yards or less.

Any reason he's not doing Kickoffs?

[lumbercat]

While not a Nescac grad recent RPI grad is kicker for the Dolphins.

[westcoastDad]

Amazing that the 1 xp that he missed.....was the difference in us losing 27-26


ote author=NESCAC.Football.Observer link=topic=4146.msg1760852#msg1760852 date=1476808495]

N.F.O. the Amherst PK is quietly amazing.  He's already 1-1 from outside of 50.  Hasn't missed yet this season if I'm correct. 

AMH63?

John Rak:

http://athletics.amherst.edu/sports/fball/2016-17/players/johnrak6zdy?view=gamelog&pos=k

He's 9 for 10 for PAT's and 5 for 5 for FG's, with a long of 52, a 34, and the other 3 being 20 yards or less.

Any reason he's not doing Kickoffs?
[/quote]

[PolarCat]

Amazing that the 1 xp that he missed.....was the difference in us losing 27-26

The box score says the kick was blocked.  It does not say he missed it.  9 times out of 10, a blocked kick means an OL or RB missed his block, the center got off a bad snap, or the holder bobbled the ball.  In other words, the fault usually lies with kids you consider to be "real" football players.

[JEFFFAN]

With all due respect to certain posters, of course kickers are football players.   No - none of my kids played the position - but they are integral parts of the team.   It is so easy to get into the rah rah, they don't block, they don't hit, they aren't "real players" argument, but that is pure foolishness.   Amherst isn't undefeated without that great kicker they had.   Vataha's kid beat Amherst about 20 years ago (Williams player) as a great kicker.   Stop the argument - it makes no sense - or, if you want, ask the coaches.   They will laugh in your face.

Right, DHs are baseball players either, right?   Somebody tell all of the teams that Ortiz crushed over the past 15 years.

[RetiredMule]

WCD - Top 34 scorers of all time in NFL are kickers. The fundamental field position battle that kickers influence cannot be understated. These players train and execute in different ways, but are most definitely football players. Football players are not defined by your standards of concussions or some other dumb metric.

And if you believe there are no good running backs in college football, you are not paying attention. Or perhaps you scan games. A QB with 60+ unique touches in a game will almost always stand out in the stat sheet over a RB with ~20 touches. There are more opportunities to make things happen. And given how the read option is run, the QB is more likely to break a long run off of it because they are the 2nd option ONCE the defense makes the improper read. People to look for as college running backs this year are tOSU's Curtis Samuel, UGA's Nick Chubb, LSU's Leonard Fournette, Utah State's Devontay Mays, Colorado's Phillip Lindsay, BYU's Jamaal Williams, FSU's Dalvin Cook, Toledo's Kareem Hunt, Stanford's Christian McCaffrey, Oregon's Royce Freeman, Oklahoma's Joe Mixon, Boise State's Jeremy McNichols have all been very good this year. There is plenty of very good running backs. There are still guys progressing to the NFL from this position yearly and making huge impacts. The read option era of more mobile quarterbacks have hurt RB production where they receive less touches in more situations where they are the primary key. If you run read-option correctly and the defense correctly defends it, sadly after hand off, there is a free defensive player to trail the RB. The read-option leads to big play QBs taking advantage of a defender being out of place. The read-option harms RB production in a way we haven't seen during the older run first eras.

[RetiredMule]

And 4 kickers are in Canton. George Blanda, Lou Groza, Ray Guy, and Jan Stenerud.

[Vandy74]

N.F.O. the Amherst PK is quietly amazing.  He's already 1-1 from outside of 50.  Hasn't missed yet this season if I'm correct. 

AMH63?

I seem to remember that he's had one blocked though.

[westcoastDad]

Blanda?  Wasn't he a QB who also kicked?  Even Groza played OL but extended his career by PK. 

uote author=Vandy74 link=topic=4146.msg1760909#msg1760909 date=1476819366]

N.F.O. the Amherst PK is quietly amazing.  He's already 1-1 from outside of 50.  Hasn't missed yet this season if I'm correct. 

AMH63?

I seem to remember that he's had one blocked though.
[/quote]

[IslandTime]

Amazing that the 1 xp that he missed.....was the difference in us losing 27-26

The box score says the kick was blocked.  It does not say he missed it.  9 times out of 10, a blocked kick means an OL or RB missed his block, the center got off a bad snap, or the holder bobbled the ball.  In other words, the fault usually lies with kids you consider to be "real" football players.

There was a break down on olineq in the B gap and Middlebury defender had an easy track on blocking the kick. Definately not the fault of the Amherst kicker in any way.

And at the end of that Middlebury game to throw an interception on a screen pass with under 2 minutes when we were on The Panthers 30 yard line! Easily within field goal range for this kid. Coach Ballard/Mills has to be beating themselves up for making that call when the game could have won with 3 runs between the tackles and a 40 yard field goal.

[RetiredMule]

Blanda played QB as well. Groza played offensive tackle as well as kicker until a back injury, but also set many distance and accuracy records. He played in an era  40's and 50s when there were almost no kicking specialists. The collegiate kicking award is named after him. Let's be serious about what Groza is remembered for. Stenerud and Guy were pure kickers.

But should someone like Adam Vinatieri or Sebastian Janikowski not deserve to be in Canton? Have their contributions not been significant enough? Have they not been all time greats who have drastically affected the outcomes of teams and seasons or set records?

[westcoastDad]

RetiredMule,

With all respect, I hear what you are saying loud and clear.  Kickers can alter games.  Kickers work hard.  I hear ya.  No disrespect intended to all of those "kickers" out there.

But, in the true spirit of the word "football player"..... No.  They are specialists that kick a ball.  Yes, if we want to be all encompassing...anyone who puts pads on can be considered a football player.

But, in the true spirit of the game.......... a football player block, tackles, throws, runs with the ball. 

When we played outside in the streets or playgrounds..........nobody thought about kicking.  heck, I remember to start the game we would many times just run and THROW the ball downfield in lieu of kicking it.

Pop Warner?  How many parents walked up and said to the coach, "can my son play kicker"? 

It's a position (a specialist one) that evolved and continues to do so.  Decades ago, soccer players would be thrust onto the gridiron because they were trained to have strong legs and could kick with more accuracy and further distances.

When a kid walks through the door .....6'5 295 lbs of muscle or 6'2 210 and runs a fast time.........Nobody says, "Now that's a placekicker".  No, they say, "Now, that's a football player" in the true essence.

In Australian football everyone can kick the ball but they also block and tackle and run with the ball.  They don't kick and then run off the field to stay out of the way of the "contact". 

What's wrong with being a specialist?  Heck, whatever works.  They still get the girls.  They still get the pension.  They still wear the pads. 

When I first got exposure to the medical field, I remember people saying, "YOu gotta attend a medical school in the U.S."  No Ghana, no schools in the Caribbean that gave out MD licenses, No D.O. (osteopathic medicine) schools.  Those were the schools for the losers.  For those that could not get into American schools.

Poppycock!!!!  Those same graduates of the schools from abroad are taking care of us left and right.  We cannot even tell the difference!!  Even my doctor friends who went to UCLA or Brown or Stanford are sending their own kids to those "crummy schools" because they know it doesn't matter.  A doctor is a doctor in the minds of patients.

Just like to you......a football player is the same regardless. 

But, to me..........a kicker is a specialist.  For those reasons above.

to each their own and I completely hear your stance.  just don't agree

[Vandy74]

Amazing that the 1 xp that he missed.....was the difference in us losing 27-26

The box score says the kick was blocked.  It does not say he missed it.  9 times out of 10, a blocked kick means an OL or RB missed his block, the center got off a bad snap, or the holder bobbled the ball.  In other words, the fault usually lies with kids you consider to be "real" football players.

Semantics, gentlemen.  Placekickers and punters play on football teams.  They play there position.  They are players.  An XP or FG attempt that fails to make it through the uprights, for any reason, is a missed attempt.  Misplays by centers and holders can also be the reason for errant kicks and too low a trajectory can be the reason for the kick being blocked.  "Player."  "Miss."  Semantics.

Btw westcoastDad, are NL pitchers players, but not their AL counterparts?  Inter-league trading must make for some very confusing resumes.