FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[amh63]

Two comments.....on posts wrt Amherst report on Sports?
Williams' fans post do not make logical connection of Williams recent slide in football to now departed Head Coach of Football.  Sort of deflection of blame to Admission, imo.  Same sort of logic and deflection wrt the recent status of once dominant EPH MBB and even in soccer.  Ephs lost a number of top MBB HCs to D1 schools...moving on.  Even lost a Player to D1 school.  Soccer coach..top one...retired.
Now referring to D1 transfers to Amherst football and basketball programs.  Heck, Midd football reloads in top football QBs almost via transfers yearly. .  Seems I recall past Williams teams allow D1 transfers into its football programs.  Unfortunately such transfers did NOT impact the W/L record.
Second comment...suggest put downs of Amherst business be done with some humor and maybe some thought.

[Pat Coleman]

Spot on Nescac1..."the defectors" need to watch out...look what happened in Billsville....god forbid a NESCAC school has a successful run in Football....they may reduce the number of the Athletic Scholarships or worse actually make the football players go to class and graduate or actually become a contributing member of society...

What's less than zero scholarships?

[nescac1]

That Williams is at the bottom of NESCAC in football, in particular, is most certainly in large part attributable to the recent head coach.  But Williams' more gradual decline over the past 20 years in many prominent team sports, including football, from the peak of it success in the 1990s and early 2000s is without any doubt in part a product of (1) the departure of an athletics-friendly admissions director to Amherst, (2) faculty outcry about athletic success, leading to a report very similar in character to the report recently completed at Amherst, and (3) changes, as a result, in athletics policies, including to admissions policies.  I'm not attacking Amherst by raising these issues, but more warning you about what MAY be in store when the college releases a report such as the one that was just published, especially so after a varsity sports team was suspended for misconduct.  Don't be surprised if the atmosphere becomes a bit more hostile to athletes in the Amherst admissions department in future years -- that at least is the signal the administration seems to be sending out. 

Regarding transfers, yes, Williams has from time to time had transfer athletes on campus -- typically no more than one every year, or more like one every other year, aggregated across sports.  Amherst has been MUCH more aggressive in bringing in high profile transfers.  For example, the current football starting QB (before he got hurt), the current men's ice hockey starting goalie, a first-team all-league midfielder on the men's soccer team, two key players on the men's basketball team, including the leading scorer, and the second-leading scorer on the women's basketball team, are all D1 transfers.  If you take away those players, it would certainly have a major impact on the success of those programs.  Williams, on the other hand, currently has (I believe) not a single D1 transfer, or athlete transfer of any kind, in the entire athletics program (including football), and that is far more common of NESCAC schools than the Amherst model.  And yes, Midd has brought in two high-profile QB transfers.  But I can't think offhand of any other Midd athletes (certainly not in hoops) that have transferred from D1, beyond those two outliers.  Amherst's approach is indeed unusual, and gives the Jeffs an advantage over its key rivals.  Unless you think hockey goalies, QBs, starting PGs, and star soccer midfielders don't make major contributions to a team's success ...

[JEFFFAN]

That Williams is at the bottom of NESCAC in football, in particular, is most certainly in large part attributable to the recent head coach.  But Williams' more gradual decline over the past 20 years in many prominent team sports, including football, from the peak of it success in the 1990s and early 2000s is without any doubt in part a product of (1) the departure of an athletics-friendly admissions director to Amherst, (2) faculty outcry about athletic success, leading to a report very similar in character to the report recently completed at Amherst, and (3) changes, as a result, in athletics policies, including to admissions policies.  I'm not attacking Amherst by raising these issues, but more warning you about what MAY be in store when the college releases a report such as the one that was just published, especially so after a varsity sports team was suspended for misconduct.  Don't be surprised if the atmosphere becomes a bit more hostile to athletes in the Amherst admissions department in future years -- that at least is the signal the administration seems to be sending out. 

Regarding transfers, yes, Williams has from time to time had transfer athletes on campus -- typically no more than one every year, or more like one every other year, aggregated across sports.  Amherst has been MUCH more aggressive in bringing in high profile transfers.  For example, the current football starting QB (before he got hurt), the current men's ice hockey starting goalie, a first-team all-league midfielder on the men's soccer team, two key players on the men's basketball team, including the leading scorer, and the second-leading scorer on the women's basketball team, are all D1 transfers.  If you take away those players, it would certainly have a major impact on the success of those programs.  Williams, on the other hand, currently has (I believe) not a single D1 transfer, or athlete transfer of any kind, in the entire athletics program (including football), and that is far more common of NESCAC schools than the Amherst model.  And yes, Midd has brought in two high-profile QB transfers.  But I can't think offhand of any other Midd athletes (certainly not in hoops) that have transferred from D1, beyond those two outliers.  Amherst's approach is indeed unusual, and gives the Jeffs an advantage over its key rivals.  Unless you think hockey goalies, QBs, starting PGs, and star soccer midfielders don't make major contributions to a team's success ...

It is likely safe to assume that most of us - not all, but most - are of an age where we remember great Williams runs, great Amherst runs, great Trinity runs, great Middlebury runs, etc, in various sports.   When those runs occurred, conversations abounded among rival alumni - including me! - about how those dastardly Ephs, Bantams, etc, were admitting students that didn't deserve to be admitted; accepted transfers that didn't deserve to be there (the recent Williams QB from BC, for instance); and that the arms race appeared to being fought not by our beloved alma mater but by those 'other guys".  It was like clockwork.  A great run occurred, complaints from rivals increased about recruiting, and in no case was I - and perhaps others - ever able to provide proof that said statements were accurate.

To an earlier point, Amherst has had a good run in what some might refer to as "major sports" as compared to success that Williams might continue to have in "minor sports".  Football, hoops, lacrosse, ice hockey - major.   Swimming x-country - minor.   I agree with this point but might suggest that if you tell the President of Williams that winning the D3 cup every year only through dominating "minor sports" makes the honor less valuable, he will tell you to go pound sand.   Winning in the minor sports likely has provided a bit of a cover for the Eph administration, frankly, with their latest bad run in football.  So ... I agree about the good run that the Jeffs have had in some of the major points and have enjoyed every game of said runs,

I also acknowledge the point that current foibles might lead to change at Amherst, although the Athletics Report didn't suggest much along those lines.   Read carefully, it was a fairly benign report.

IMHO, the broader question is whether schools like Amherst believe that if they are going to push the hyper-liberal diversity agenda in terms of student body composition that might not be favored by athletic alumni - which the Athletics Report are a group that give disproportionately to capital campaigns and alumni giving .. well, they better win a bunch.   I view it as a quiet, unacknowledged trade-off, a deal with the devil, if you will.   I also buy that if excellence is to be striven for it needs to occur in all aspects of academia.

Williams hasn't been good in football largely because of a really bad coach with an administration that probably let it go a bit because of prior great runs.   It happens.   Amherst has two historically excellent coaches in their two major sports - football and basketball - so they will keep running in those sports.  I don't think for one second that accepting transfers has anything to do with it nor changing admission standards.  Remember - the NESCAC self regulates every summer!

Having said all of that, this stuff goes in waves.  The Lord Jeff time of not doing so well will happen.   So we enjoy it while we can.

[lumbercat]

They aren't reducing anything at Trinity- full speed ahead as always- admissions is always on board and the faculty supports their commitment to winning. Go Bants

[westcoastDad]

Nescac1 it's a stretch to say the Amherst QB is a D1 transfer.  When I think of "D1" I'm thinking big time football.  I think he was a non playing freshman at USD (Univ of San Diego). 

D1 is so overrated or at times misleading.  Univ of Maine has a basketball team.  They are horrible.  But "D1".  Our Amherst MBB probably beats them.

If he was the backup to Sam Darnold at USC and decided to transfer (Max Browne)...... 

[nescac1]

It's silly to suggest that Amherst's move over the past decade or so to regularly accept a high volume of impact transfers across multiple sports has NOTHING to do with its recent athletic success (and I'm not saying that it is the MAIN factor, just that it is an important one).  Certainly, having truly excellent football, basketball (both men's and women's) and soccer coaches has a ton to do with it, too; even without a single transfer, all of those programs would be very strong.  But when Amherst, like all NESCAC schools, is severely limited in the number of impact athlete recruits it can accept each year, the ability to supplement that limited pool by regularly adding high-impact sophomore and junior transfers across multiple sports of COURSE makes a difference.  You really think Amherst men's hoops would be as good this year without Dawson and Conklin, or men's soccer would have been as good without two of its best midfielders, both transfers (one was from Conn College, in addition to the D1 transfer)?  The Amherst report was subtle, but its tone was unmistakable if you read carefully.  All I'm saying is, don't be surprised if Amherst tightens the reigns a bit on athlete admissions generally, and high profile athlete admits in particular, both for frosh and for transfers.  The Williams report from a decade or so back was similarly full of pro-athletics platitudes but also pointed out exactly the same types of issues that the Amherst report is now highlighting.  It doesn't take much at the margins to have a significant impact.  Now, so long as Hixon is the hoops coach and EJ Mills is the football coach, those programs will be on solid footing -- I've never said that Williams' recent football struggles weren't primarily a factor of the head coach.  But there is a big difference between nearly-annual national title contenders (hoops and men's soccer) and back-to-back 8-0 seasons (football), on the one hand, and say, making the Final Four every 6-7 years in hoops and generally going 5-3 or 6-2 in football, on the other.  And substracting just a few key players from the equation can be that difference. 

[ColbyFootball]

Any word on Colby? Recruits? Anything?

[maineman]

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you think that a high percentage of the D-1 transfers to NESCAC were originally recruited by the team?  Things didn't go as planned in D-1 so they returned to a D-3 team that had earlier expressed an interest?  It's not like NESCAC teams are trolling the Alabama and Clemson rosters looking for players.

[nescac1]

I think that a significant percentage were originally recruited by the team. But certainly not all.  And some who WERE recruited perhaps could not have gotten through admissions as frosh, but can as transfers.  More importantly, if you can bring in, say, 3 elite recruits in a particular sport as frosh, but only 3 due to NESCAC's severe constraints, but can then add a fourth the following year, just having that additional star recruit makes a huge difference.  I'm not saying the NESCAC transfer process is like, say, Rowan hoops back in its heyday, where teams are bringing in D1 scholarship level talents.  Rowan and other schools that have followed that model are playing on entirely different playing fields.  But because NESCAC places so many constraints on athletic recruiting, in particular the absolute number of annual TIP restrictions, anything that serves effectively as an end-around can make a big difference. 

[NESCAC.Football.Observer]

Rumor mill has the Amherst QB coach and Recruiting Coordinator leaving for an Ivy League job.

That opens up 2 coaching spots - QB coach and RB coach (as Donny McK left for a job at prep school Loomis Chaffee) - on the Amherst coaching staff......


Also on the rumor mill..... Eph RB Coach Smesko is moving on too.......... last (paid) holdover from the Kelton era (other than longime volunteer Joe Doyle).............

[JEFFFAN]

I think that a significant percentage were originally recruited by the team. But certainly not all.  And some who WERE recruited perhaps could not have gotten through admissions as frosh, but can as transfers.  More importantly, if you can bring in, say, 3 elite recruits in a particular sport as frosh, but only 3 due to NESCAC's severe constraints, but can then add a fourth the following year, just having that additional star recruit makes a huge difference.  I'm not saying the NESCAC transfer process is like, say, Rowan hoops back in its heyday, where teams are bringing in D1 scholarship level talents.  Rowan and other schools that have followed that model are playing on entirely different playing fields.  But because NESCAC places so many constraints on athletic recruiting, in particular the absolute number of annual TIP restrictions, anything that serves effectively as an end-around can make a big difference.

Nescac1 - you make a number of good points. On the question of transfers representing an "end around", I encourage you to call the Williams admissions office and inquire about this. What you will learn is that the admissions of all transfers are regulated in the same way as freshmen admits are throughout the NESCAC.   Amherst was able to see the admission profile of the BC quarterback at Williams after the fact just as Williams was able to see the same for Dawson.

Never forget - all of us care a lot more about winning then the admission directors in the NESCAC!

[quicksilver]

Nescac1 - you make a number of good points. On the question of transfers representing an "end around", I encourage you to call the Williams admissions office and inquire about this. What you will learn is that the admissions of all transfers are regulated in the same way as freshmen admits are throughout the NESCAC.   Amherst was able to see the admission profile of the BC quarterback at Williams after the fact just as Williams was able to see the same for Dawson.

Yes -- I was told by someone who worked in admissions at a NESCAC that the same "tipping" rules and limits apply to transfer athletes as apply to athletes who apply out of high school . .

[amh63]

NFO...thanks for the rumor wrt recruiting coordinator.  Nice guy and hard worker.  Had expected such a move coming.  Remember chatting with him about a posted Williams recruit in the MD area.  He knew about the recruit.  Another point that Nescac coaches are aware of who is going where.
Believe he was a fine QB at Tufts in his playing days.

[jumpshot]

Anyone who thinks a level playing field of consistent governance exists in NESCAC is naive. Only a few stalwarts of longtime standing actually conform with standards ----and realize their institution is better off for doing so. Others, well, they are entitled to do whatever they think is in the best interests of their enterprise, and their practices are widely known.