FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[ColbyFootball]

Wish the world had a little more JOHN WAYNE and a little less DR PHIL...

The problem with many of these posters is that the think they're JOHN WAYNE but they're really DR. PHIL.

[Trin9-0]

Lots of good points, Trin 8-0.  I'd much rather Williams beat Trinity on the playing field than in the snark department.  Hopefully one day soon that will happen again, but until then, Trinity's results speak for themself. 

To me, the question to ask is how much of the talent issue is a product of coaching (i.e. recruiting ability), and how much a product of institutional priorities.  At least at Williams, it really is the former rather than the latter.  Other schools, however, are likely different.  (Tufts seems to be the primary counter-example, at least to some extent).  Coach Raymond in my view is (so far, and I have no reason to believe the disparity won't grow in future years) more successful than Coach Kelton for a number of reasons: he drives his players harder and gets more out of them, he is strategically a far superior gameday coach (I often lamented that Williams lost nearly every game, if not every game, that went down to the last possession during the Kelton era), and he is able to recruit more talented players.  By far the biggest factor of these three is the third.  After all, Coach Raymond went 0-8 last season ... there is only so much strategy and coaching guys up can do without a sufficient amount of explosive talent on both sides of the ball.  So far as I have heard, there has been no change in institutional priority in terms of football recruiting since around the 2000 time frame.  Williams became a LOT tougher for athletics admissions, including football, sometime around then, and one legendary coach and one very good one (Farley and Whalen) still were able to succeed at a very high level given the new constraints, but the team wasn't quite as dominant as it had been during the first decade of the Farley era. 

Still, even given the constraints that have been in place for well over a decade now, there is no reason for Williams, in light of its resources, facilities, program history, and proven ability to attract talented players from all over the country, to ever be below .500 in a bad year, and in a good year they should be challenging for the conference crown.  The main reason the team was in a rough patch for so long was because Kelton and his staff, frankly, weren't very good recruiters.  I'm not sure if it was an issue of not spotting talent or just not being able to close the deal with players they targeted, but the guys who used to end up at Williams were ending up elsewhere (especially Amherst, and it's no accident that the recent Amherst senior classes who went undefeated in their last season or two all came in during Kelton recruiting years).

To pick the most important example, in six years, Kelton brought in one credible, solid QB in (as a Junior transfer, so he only played for two years) and not ONE even average starting NESCAC QB in as frosh.  He benefited from recruits he inherited, but after that the QB position at Williams was mostly a disaster.  That's just incredibly negligent for the most important position.  At the same time, Trinity, Amherst and Midd would bring in about one potential star QB a year, or at worst, every other year.  It took Raymond all of one recruiting season to find a quality (to put it mildly) starting QB.  That is nothing to do with a change in institutional priorities, and all about the ability to identify and recruit talent.  A star QB can sure make a coach look like a genius!  LB is another key position on the Williams defense where Kelton really struggled to bring guys in.  He inherited a superstar MLB, but once that guy graduated, a position where Williams traditionally had NESCAC POY candidates nearly every year was suddenly devoid of anyone approaching even an all-NESCAC level.  Once again, in just one year, the new regime brought in not one but two star LBs who are now leading the team in tackles as frosh and who both make plays all over the field. 

Thanks, as always, nescac1 for offering a thoughtful, levelheaded comment. I think your point falls in between what ColbyFootball and I have been debating. A huge (the biggest?) factor in coaching success is recruiting. If someone wants to say Michaels is a bad coach because he can't recruit then that's a totally different argument than "he's a bad coach because we have so much talent and he just doesn't put them in the right position to win."

I agree that Williams is an outlier in that their commitment to football doesn't appear to have changed but the inability of their coach to recruit led to their short-lived demise. You may be surprised to find that savvy Trinity fans are rooting for Williams to once again be a contender. As you correctly pointed out, one of the reasons for Amherst's run of dominance was that they were getting many (all?) of the recruits that were choosing between Williams and Amherst. If that talent pool is split between the two schools it benefits Trinity who is recruiting from a slightly different pool of applicants.

Improving the talent on a roster takes institutional buy-in and flexibility as well as a capable staff of coaches who can recruit. The play-calling is much easier to do when you've got better players. Two schools have been championship contenders seemingly every year for the past decade and a half; Trinity and Amherst. What do they both have in common?

1. Institutional buy-in
2. Coaches with the ability to recruit talent
3. Coaches who can develop talent

In my opinion play calling and game-planning are a distant fourth.

[ColbyFootball]

Sorry if I struck a nerve but my "generalities" are based on nearly 20 years of playing and watching NESCAC football. Before this season I've watched typically 4-5 Trinity games per season with the majority being live. Sure, it's been tough getting to a game so far this season with two 6 month babies in tow, but I'm confident in my knowledge of the league and clearly have a far less jaded view than you.

Your evidence that Colby's players are every bit as talented as the top tier teams is one player who averaged 61 yards per game last season?

Colby has been bad for a long time. The mules haven't had a winning record since 2005 and their winning percentage since then is .333 (Michael's winning percentage is .288 (13-32) through his 5 and half seasons as head coach. (When you consider they didn't even have to play Trinity half of those years it's actually worse than it looks.)

I find it extremely hard to believe that for ELEVEN years Colby has been SO stocked with talent that only incompetent coaching could be holding them back. Colby was bad before Michaels took over and they're only slightly worse now.

I'm sure I won't convince you, and I'm sure it makes you feel better to blame the coach than admit that maybe your kid and his teammates aren't the superstars you want them to be. Best of luck with the CBB. I'm sure you'll find that the coaching miraculously improves when you play Hamilton, Bates, and Bowdoin.

Trin 8-0
Good point on the quote function thing- I usually get it right but I screwed that one up.

On another note, welcome back to the board- enjoying your posts today and your exchange with Colby Football.
You make some great points.

As a Bates guy Colby Football knows I feel his pain but I have said all along he's been heavy handed on the Colby coaching staff while not acknowledging that there is a pretty significant talent issue there. When you start moving guys around from offense to defense and even have some guys going both ways in certain situations I think that speaks directly to level of talent and lack of depth.

Relative to the blame pie relative to coaching consider the situation at Tufts over the past several years Coach Civetti lost 32 straight games and parents like ColbyFootball were livid. They wanted Civetti gone.

Today Tufts is at the top of the conference. Coach Civ is more experienced now but he is still the same guy. The arrival of a new AD and new president, not to mention the hiring of very good OC who had been a NESCAC HC for many years. All those things somehow turned Coach Civetti into a very successful and respected coach in the NESCAC. Same guy.

Coaching is certainly a huge part of the equation but I don't think it's the only factor that influences wins and losses.

A wise man, (Frank Ubile?) once said "It's more about the Johnny's and the Joe's than the X's and the O's".

Jay Civetti was a captain at Trinity my freshman year. He's a great guy and I was so happy that the Tufts administration gave him time and resources to turn around that program. I can only imagine what the Jumbo parents thought of him during those winless seasons. Parents like ColbyFootball must assume he just woke up smarter one day.

First enjoy the little ones. That's what's most important.

As for football. we're all a little jaded as you put it. But, I form my opinions based on the statistics, what I personally observe, what I am told by coaches, and what I hear from players. I have been to every Colby game except this year's Wes game, and watched that one streaming. You would have thought I wrote the script for AD Whelan's commentary (though he was more understandably diplomatic). If you were there and saw how each game unfolded in near identical ways, and how the offensive coaching was near identical each week, you might have a different opinion.

As for Hurdle-Price, the kid was killed by the coaching, like so many other players. You correctly stated he only averaged 61.8 yards per game last year. He average 91 yards per game the year before. Then defenses caught on the him, stacked the box against the run, and the coaches kept with the same old tired game plan. I sat next to old ladies that would tell me the next play before we ran it. I was there for it, not you.

And the wise man was right, and I've made that point. Anyone can learn X's and O's, that doesn't mean they can coach.

And one last time regarding coaching. it is not everything, but it's really important.

And one last question, taking a look at Michaeles' record, and the lack of progress, would many teams that want to win keep him on as HC? If you ran the team would you? Give an honest answer.

[ColbyFootball]

If someone wants to say Michaeles is a bad coach because he can't recruit then that's a totally different argument than "he's a bad coach because we have so much talent and he just doesn't put them in the right position to win."

I NEVER said what you quote me as saying. They are not overflowing with talent, and they have injuries. But, the results should not be this bad, even if they didn't have a win. His recruiting and retaining players, his use of the talent he has, his game planning, his play calling or influence over it, and his "let's try not to lose" attitude in games are the big factors in my view. Teams usually take on the personality/identity of the coach. Colby has no identity. Bates may be struggling, but they have an identity, even if you don't like it. But, I can't be sure of the reasons for failure. All I can do is point to failure, lack of personality and a team that's boring on offense. Geez, they're averaging 5.4 points a game. You can tend to your two precious 6 month old babies on the sidelines, and coach the offense to greater success.

[Trin9-0]

If someone wants to say Michaeles is a bad coach because he can't recruit then that's a totally different argument than "he's a bad coach because we have so much talent and he just doesn't put them in the right position to win."

I NEVER said what you quote me as saying. They are not overflowing with talent, and they have injuries. But, the results should not be this bad, even if they didn't have a win. His recruiting and retaining players, his use of the talent he has, his game planning, his play calling or influence over it, and his "let's try not to lose" attitude in games are the big factors in my view. Teams usually take on the personality/identity of the coach. Colby has no identity. Bates may be struggling, but they have an identity, even if you don't like it. But, I can't be sure of the reasons for failure. All I can do is point to failure, lack of personality and a team that's boring on offense. Geez, they're averaging 5.4 points a game. You can tend to your two precious 6 month old babies on the sidelines, and coach the offense to greater success.

My apologies, the quotes within my response were meant to imply a general sentiment rather than a direct quote from you. Do I have it wrong, or isn't your argument that Colby has the talent but is poorly coached? My argument is that they don't have talent to compete with the top teams regardless of who's calling plays.

To answer your previous question, I honestly don't think it matters who is Colby's head coach. Until the school makes a commitment through financial support and admissions flexibility they won't have enough talent on their roster to win more than 3 or 4 game per year.

On a positive note, we finally agree on something, the babies are precious!

Go Bantams!


Go Bills! (I'm no front-runner ):

[ColbyFootball]

Do I have it wrong, or isn't your argument that Colby has the talent but is poorly coached? My argument is that they don't have talent to compete with the top teams regardless of who's calling plays.

To answer your previous question, I honestly don't think it matters who is Colby's head coach. Until the school makes a commitment through financial support and admissions flexibility they won't have enough talent on their roster to win more than 3 or 4 game per year.

On a positive note, we finally agree on something, the babies are precious!

Go Bantams!


Go Bills! (I'm no front-runner ):

I'm not saying they have the talent to compete with all of the big dogs every game. I do think they can play more tight tough games, scare some big teams, and pull off an upset here and there. I am sorry (really am) to say that we've seen none of that from the Colby team headed by Michaeles. But the administration seems to be backing the program as Pres. Greene is a football guy, the AD's a big football guy, and they're building a new magnificent athletic facility that will catch the eye of many recruits.

In the meantime, enjoy those absolutely beautiful twins of yours. I miss those days.               

[PolarCat]

First of all, correctly using the quote function on this message board really isn't that difficult. There's even a preview button to see how your post will look before posting. Take a few minutes to try and figure it out. This applies to more than a few on this board.

Secondly, have you ever considered the possibility that Colby is bad at football because they have bad football players? Must it always be the coach's fault? The biggest difference between a top tier team in this league and a bottom tier team is talent, not coaching.

We've had our differences, but I'd give you two separate +K's if I could: one for the quote comment, the other for trying to inject some sense of reality.  Actually, make that three +K's.  As the father of twins myself, your most difficult days are ahead of you.  Wait another 9 months or so, when they have moved past toddling to running.  They never, ever go in the same direction.  Wait till you take them on your first trip through an airport.  Herding cats is tame by comparison.  Then in a decade or so, they will take turns currying your favor, as they throw their sibling under the bus.  Good times.  Better still is the joy that comes from paying TWO NESCAC tuitions simultaneously.  It's two decades in the future, but I already feel your pain.

Heading to Lewiston tomorrow.  Staying at Residence Inn.  Anyone know a good place for dinner Friday night.  Doesn't need to be fancy, just good food and local beer. Suggestions?

You can do better than Gritty's (a dive) or Gippers (as far as I can tell, the biggest appeal is the life-sized poster of lumbercat in his playing days, right inside the door).  DaVinci's is really good.   Fuel is fantastic.  But if you like Asian food, you must try Orchid.  Among the best I've ever had, anywhere.  And the good news is that Bates is on break this weekend, so there is a high probability you can actually get a table at Orchid without an hour wait.

BTW the biggest culinary disappointment in Lewiston-Auburn is there's no decent spot for Sunday brunch.  The Starbucks across the street from your hotel is about as good as it gets.  Now, if you have the hankering to visit Brunswick or Freeport on this trip, Mae's in Bath is fabulous.  We may see you there.

[PolarCat]

And before I get "pre-moderated" (sounds vaguely like what Dave did to Hal), I'd like to make a suggestion.  Other boards I frequent for my other areas of interest usually have a function where you can "Ignore" a member whose posts you find tedious or offensive.  I think that feature would make this board much more enjoyable.

Tired of hearing a certain poster make the same old complaint for the 5,00th time?  Tired of seeing another poster twist things to fit his own political agenda?  Or tired of seeing someone use a derogatory nickname for your kid's school in their weekly posts?  Just click the "Ignore" button.  Heck, you can even "Ignore" me, I don't care.  That feature seems so ubiquitous on other websites, it must be included free of charge in the "Web Blog Hosting Special" these sites all seem to buy. 

More ignoring = fewer hurt feelings and fewer knickers tied in knots, and we can have a big group hug and sing kum-bay-ah together.  Or sing, "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do."

[Nescacman]

2017 Week #6 NESCACMAN Preview

Welcome to Week 6 in the NESCAC..."the league where they pay to play". Last week we went 4-1, we are 21-4 for the season and are 145-40 for our career picking NESCAC games. Only surprise last week was MID losing to the Ephs.  Week 6 features the first Little 3 contest of the year as Wesleyan travels to Amhurst to face the Lord Mammoths in the NESCAC GOTW.

Colby College at Hamilton College: Hamilton has too many playmakers compared to Colby and unless Colby's defense shuts out their opponent, their chances of winning are about zero since Colby averages less than a TD per game. Colby's QB has no ability to stretch the field and their last in NESCAC rushing game is averaging 1.9 yards per carry. We heard a rumor that the Colby HCOF handed over play calling duties to the Giants Coach McAdoo. HAM gets win #2.

Hamilton 24 Colby 7
Weather: Not a factor. High around 75.

Middlebury College at University of Bates (Lewiston Campus): We think MID gets back on track this week. If they run the table, they can get a piece of the NESCAC title. Bates does not match up well with MID since they don't defend the pass very well and that's basically all that the Pants do. Bates only chance is to run the ball effectively, control the clock (unfortunately, highly unlikely given that Bates is last in the NESCAC in TOP) and have Costa mix in the occasional pass to keep MID honest. Oh, and a few turnovers here and there wouldn't hurt. Easier said than done....MID wins going away.

Middlebury 45 University of Bates 14
Weather: Not a factor. High around 70.

Bowdoin College at Hartford State College: Last pillow fight of the year for HS. The Staters could show up with the 2nd string and still crush the PBers. We know Devanney would never do that. In act, expect the 1st teamers to pile it on, in typical fashion. Bowdoin is last in the NESCAC in total D and HS is 2nd. We cannot see a possible scenario where Hartford State doesn't win, let alone win by a ton.

Hartford State 45 Bowdoin 7
Weather: Not a factor. High around 78.

Tufts University at Williams College: Interesting game....who would have thunk. We like McDonald's experience versus Marmaton's exuberance. Tufts offense has been slightly more productive than the Ephs while Williams defense is slightly stronger than the Jumbo's.

Tufts 28 Williams 21
Weather: Not a factor. High around 73.

NESCAC Game of the Week

Wesleyan University at Amhurst College: Great week 6 Little Three match-up. Winner of this still has a shot at the league title. Games against common opponents are very similar. Although the Lord Mammoths have scored slightly more points, WES' #1 NESCAC offense averages almost 85 yards per game more than Amhurst. WES has thrown for almost double the yards and TD passes when compared to the Lord Mammoths. WES has almost 50% more first downs than Amhurst. The LMs are the #1 ranked running team in the NESCAC. Expect them to rely heavily on the run against the Cards. Wesleyan is averaging 89% in the red zone while the Lord Mammoths are at only 59%. They'll have to do better than that tomorrow. On the other side of the ball, Amhurst sports the #1 defense in the league in terms of yards against. Most of their defensive success has been against the run, however, Wes is a pass first offense and is loaded with offensive weapons. Expect WES to try and throw the ball a lot against the Lord Mammoths. We like WES in a close one primarily based on the potent Piccirillo to Breuler combo. Amhurst just doesn't have an answer for the Cards aerial assault.

Wesleyan 24 Amhurst 17
Weather: Not a factor. High around 76.

NESCACMAN's Picks
2017 Season: 21-4
2016 Season: 32-8
2015 Season: 30-10
2014 Season: 30-10
2013 Season: 32-8
Career: 145-40 (.784 winning percentage)

[ColbyFootball]

2017 Week #6 NESCACMAN Preview

Welcome to Week 6 in the NESCAC..."the league where they pay to play". Last week we went 4-1, we are 21-4 for the season and are 145-40 for our career picking NESCAC games. Only surprise last week was MID losing to the Ephs.  Week 6 features the first Little 3 contest of the year as Wesleyan travels to Amhurst to face the Lord Mammoths in the NESCAC GOTW.

Colby College at Hamilton College: Hamilton has too many playmakers compared to Colby and unless Colby's defense shuts out their opponent, their chances of winning are about zero since Colby averages less than a TD per game. Colby's QB has no ability to stretch the field and their last in NESCAC rushing game is averaging 1.9 yards per carry. We heard a rumor that the Colby HCOF handed over play calling duties to the Giants Coach McAdoo. HAM gets win #2.

Hamilton 24 Colby 7
Weather: Not a factor. High around 75.

Middlebury College at University of Bates (Lewiston Campus): We think MID gets back on track this week. If they run the table, they can get a piece of the NESCAC title. Bates does not match up well with MID since they don't defend the pass very well and that's basically all that the Pants do. Bates only chance is to run the ball effectively, control the clock (unfortunately, highly unlikely given that Bates is last in the NESCAC in TOP) and have Costa mix in the occasional pass to keep MID honest. Oh, and a few turnovers here and there wouldn't hurt. Easier said than done....MID wins going away.

Middlebury 45 University of Bates 14
Weather: Not a factor. High around 70.

Bowdoin College at Hartford State College: Last pillow fight of the year for HS. The Staters could show up with the 2nd string and still route the PBers. We know Devanney would never do that. In act, expect the 1st teamers to pile it on, in typical fashion. Bowdoin is last in the NESCAC in total D and HS is 2nd. We cannot see a possible scenario where Hartford State doesn't win, let alone win by a ton.

Hartford State 45 Bowdoin 7
Weather: Not a factor. High around 78.

Tufts University at Williams College: Interesting game....who would have thunk. We like McDonald's experience versus Marmaton's exuberance. Tufts offense has been slightly more productive than the Ephs while Williams defense is slightly stronger than the Jumbo's.

Tufts 28 Williams 21
Weather: Not a factor. High around 73.

NESCAC Game of the Week

Wesleyan University at Amhurst College: Great week 6 Little Three match-up. Winner of this still has a shot at the league title. Games against common opponents are very similar. Although the Lord Mammoths have scored slightly more points, WES' #1 NESCAC offense averages almost 85 yards per game more than Amhurst. WES has thrown for almost double the yards and TD passes when compared to the Lord Mammoths. WES has almost 50% more first downs than Amhurst. The LMs are the #1 ranked running team in the NESCAC. Expect them to rely heavily on the run against the Cards. Wesleyan is averaging 89% in the red zone while the Lord Mammoths are at only 59%. They'll have to do better than that tomorrow. On the other side of the ball, Amhurst sports the #1 defense in the league in terms of yards against. Most of their defensive success has been against the run, however, Wes is a pass first offense and is loaded with offensive weapons. Expect WES to try and throw the ball a lot against the Lord Mammoths. We like WES in a close one primarily based on the potent Piccirillo to Breuler combo. Amhurst just doesn't have an answer for the Cards aerial assault.

Wesleyan 24 Amhurst 17
Weather: Not a factor. High around 76.

NESCACMAN's Picks
2017 Season: 21-4
2016 Season: 32-8
2015 Season: 30-10
2014 Season: 30-10
2013 Season: 32-8
Career: 145-40 (.784 winning percentage)

I agree with all of your picks. The only game I have as a toss up is Williams Tufts. I can't help feeling the Ephs are getting better and better as the season rolls on. The reason us the QB. I love his play. He has the intangible that names you great.

[hamgrand]

Polar cat,  didn't get your post until II made it to Gippers.  Looking for the Lumbercat pic but not seeing any Bates pictures near the door. A good one of Lewiston football with the Alabama numbers on the helmet. But nonBates stuff.  Interesting place.  Actually ate at Fish Bones because a customer wanted to go there. Pretty good meal!  Stopped at Grittys for a beer before and gippers after.  Half priced appetizers after 10pm.   Anyways, good luck tomorrow.  Hope to meet you and Ljmbercat at the game!

[hamgrand]

Last post was from iPhone at Gippers.  I apologize for the typos.  Still sometimes long for my Blackberry!

[nescac1]

While Amherst Mammoths is quite the mouthful, I must say, the new logo is pretty slick.  It's no purple cow, but I like it ...

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/10/20/long-lord-jeff-amherst-college-unveils-new-logo/0mI6v0R2YjOzAgtYbtWvVI/story.html

[UfanBill]

Wish the world had a little more JOHN WAYNE and a little less DR PHIL...

I don't like politics on these boards but I feel I have to comment. I couldn't disagree with you more. So you're saying we need more tough guys, more loudmouths, more bullies and less people who want to understand, to discuss and to compromise. NO

[Nescacman]

While Amherst Mammoths is quite the mouthful, I must say, the new logo is pretty slick.  It's no purple cow, but I like it ...

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/10/20/long-lord-jeff-amherst-college-unveils-new-logo/0mI6v0R2YjOzAgtYbtWvVI/story.html

Nescac1, we appreciate your sense of humor. We actually laughed out loud when we read that article...isn't one elephant in the NESCAC enough...for a supposed institution of higher learning, Amhurst sure plagiarizes a lot. First, they steal Williams colors when they moved south to set up a new college closer to civilization, then they steal Tufts mascot....maybe a better name for Amhurst would have been "The GeeMen"...."Oh Lord Jeffrey Mammoth was the soldier of a king...."