FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Vandy74]

NESCACMan.... Hockey hastened Union's departure from NESCAC, but in the early-mid 80s, Union's football program also outgrew NESCAC, first with former Brown assistant Joe Wirth and then with Al Bagnoli (who of course went on to win a bunch of Ivy titles at Penn and now has Columbia winning).Under Bagnoli, and with plenty of institutional support, Union began recruiting de facto I-AA athletes in large quantities (the the type of players that Williams or Amherst has always gotten here and there, but not in bulk) and making the D3 playoffs almost every year, including a couple losses in the national championship game. Union sustained this level for a decade or more. Not sure how they are today. But back then, Union was playing Hamilton, Middiebury and Williams every year and those schools were happy to see Union go elsewhere. As you and others have said, D3 fortunes rise and fall, but for a while Union was among the best programs in the country and had no business in NESCAC.

FanOfNescac...While your description of the rapid improvement of Union College football in the eighties is accurate, the conclusions you draw from it, that Williams and Middlebury were glad to see the Dutchmen go, and that they were too cool for school by Nescac football standards, simply don't wash.  From 1982 through '87, the final season in which Union played it's Nescac rivals, the Panthers and the Ephs were both in slumps.  During that period only Middlebury managed to have a winning season doing so in 1983.  That was the year Union let Augustana come back from 10 points down in the 4th Q in losing the championship game.  They were 10-2 overall that year.  The one regular season defeat was at the hands of 6-2 Middlebury.  In 1987 both Union and Middlebury played .500 ball, Union going 5-5 and the Panthers going 4-4.  The fact that Union only won their final confrontation by a score of 9-7 would indicate that neither was playing at a different level than the other.  I believe that in 1989, two seasons after being little more than Middlebury's equal, Union was no more capable than the top Nescac team would have been, if allowed, of advancing to the championship game.  My assumption is based on the fact that 1989 was the third season of Dick Farley-coached Williams football.  The Ephs were a perfect 8-0.  After a 4-4 start in 1987, Farley's Ephs lost a total of 14 games over a stretch of 16 seasons.  I doubt that in competing against that consistent level of excellence, programs like Trinity, Amherst, Middlebury, Wesleyan and Tufts devolved in any way.  It was quite the opposite.  Since one could argue that Union was no better in head-to-head competition than one of the top Nescac teams in 1983, and plausibly again in '89, I see no reason to think that in the process of keeping up with the Ephs during the Farley era and the Whalen era that followed, Union football ever reached a level that made it superior to the best the Nescac had to offer.  What Union did do in the eighties was to improve from Nescac cellar dweller to Nescac contender, an accomplishment Hamilton and the CBB should try to emulate.  I've posted here earlier that I don't judge the pollsters too harshly for ignoring our conference since we give them no basis for comparison with other leagues.  I do believe, however, that each season the top two or three Nescac elevens warrant inclusion in the DIII top 25.  IMO  And fyi, Union has been in a slump the past four years but they reached the D3 playoffs as recently as 2006.  Their 2009 record was even better but failed to earn them a D3 playoff berth.

[ColbyFootball]

It's official...

http://www.nescac.com/sports/fball/tiebreaker

Good job clearing that up.

[lumbercat]

Nescacman
I think everyone accepts your poison pen approach at this point and don't take it all too seriously.
The Hartford State nickname has stirred some controversy and that is understandable as you are relentless with it. That agenda has become your signature but it certainly adds color to the board. Let me say I appreciate the time and effort you put into your coverage. It really makes this board and I always enjoy reading your posts.

As for your gritty, honest reporting style it reminds of the late Howard Cosel who always pledged to "tell it like it is". I dub you "Howard" for that reason, seems an appropriate nickname as you seem to reflect Cosell's approach to athletics. Also, by referring to you as Howard all of those on the board will avert the sometime confusion between you and NESCAC1 based on the similarity or your posting names.

Very interesting rumor about Gilmore. Can Colby afford him?

Regarding Bates QB Costa. He has very strong arm (HS Javelin champ) and throws extremely wall on
the run and very well going to his left.
Costa is not the issue in the Bates passing game, the problem is lack of a playmaker at the WR position. Bobcat WRs are sure handed but on the slow side and have difficulty getting separation. Costa will be an all conference QB if they can protect him and get a playmaker or 2 at WR. He needs a little work on accuracy but beleive me he can throw the ball.

[westcoastDad]

Does that mean he wears the toupee' that Howard wore so well?

[lumbercat]

WCD-
I used to love when Ali would reach for Cosell's head like he was going to pull off the troupe sending Howard into panic mode. Lol

[dlippiel]

NESCACMan.... Hockey hastened Union's departure from NESCAC, but in the early-mid 80s, Union's football program also outgrew NESCAC, first with former Brown assistant Joe Wirth and then with Al Bagnoli (who of course went on to win a bunch of Ivy titles at Penn and now has Columbia winning).Under Bagnoli, and with plenty of institutional support, Union began recruiting de facto I-AA athletes in large quantities (the the type of players that Williams or Amherst has always gotten here and there, but not in bulk) and making the D3 playoffs almost every year, including a couple losses in the national championship game. Union sustained this level for a decade or more. Not sure how they are today. But back then, Union was playing Hamilton, Middiebury and Williams every year and those schools were happy to see Union go elsewhere. As you and others have said, D3 fortunes rise and fall, but for a while Union was among the best programs in the country and had no business in NESCAC.

FanOfNescac...While your description of the rapid improvement of Union College football in the eighties is accurate, the conclusions you draw from it, that Williams and Middlebury were glad to see the Dutchmen go, and that they were too cool for school by Nescac football standards, simply don't wash.  From 1982 through '87, the final season in which Union played it's Nescac rivals, the Panthers and the Ephs were both in slumps.  During that period only Middlebury managed to have a winning season doing so in 1983.  That was the year Union let Augustana come back from 10 points down in the 4th Q in losing the championship game.  They were 10-2 overall that year.  The one regular season defeat was at the hands of 6-2 Middlebury.  In 1987 both Union and Middlebury played .500 ball, Union going 5-5 and the Panthers going 4-4.  The fact that Union only won their final confrontation by a score of 9-7 would indicate that neither was playing at a different level than the other.  I believe that in 1989, two seasons after being little more than Middlebury's equal, Union was no more capable than the top Nescac team would have been, if allowed, of advancing to the championship game.  My assumption is based on the fact that 1989 was the third season of Dick Farley-coached Williams football.  The Ephs were a perfect 8-0.  After a 4-4 start in 1987, Farley's Ephs lost a total of 14 games over a stretch of 16 seasons.  I doubt that in competing against that consistent level of excellence, programs like Trinity, Amherst, Middlebury, Wesleyan and Tufts devolved in any way.  It was quite the opposite.  Since one could argue that Union was no better in head-to-head competition than one of the top Nescac teams in 1983, and plausibly again in '89, I see no reason to think that in the process of keeping up with the Ephs during the Farley era and the Whalen era that followed, Union football ever reached a level that made it superior to the best the Nescac had to offer.  What Union did do in the eighties was to improve from Nescac cellar dweller to Nescac contender, an accomplishment Hamilton and the CBB should try to emulate.  I've posted here earlier that I don't judge the pollsters too harshly for ignoring our conference since we give them no basis for comparison with other leagues.  I do believe, however, that each season the top two or three Nescac elevens warrant inclusion in the DIII top 25.  IMO  And fyi, Union has been in a slump the past four years but they reached the D3 playoffs as recently as 2006.  Their 2009 record was even better but failed to earn them a D3 playoff berth.

Sorry but Williams loved playing Union...until Union started beating them. Also, being closer to the rest of DIII was a much easier thing to do back in the 80's. Now with well over 200 teams in D3 and taking into account the parity we see in the east, it is almost impossible to state with certainty that the top NESCAC teams would be able be right there with the top teams in the east today. With that being said dlip does believe that to be true, that the top NESCAC teams are on par with the top teams in the east. His point is that making comparisons to scores/results from the 80's just isn't doesn't work when comparing today's D3 teams/conferences. 

The NESCAC is an awesome league, honestly one that dlip would love Union to be a part of...minus the non participatory policy in the playoffs. Without any real H2H results recently we just can't state with any true certainty that the NESCAC 's level of play is on par with other east region teams. ****, it may be well above. Who knows. Great conference with a great history and academic reputation that should be respected by all IDHO.

[amh63]

Vandy74...as usual, nice post.  Plus K
Speaking of H.Cosell, His nephew is an Amherst alum and rose up in the entertainment field as Head of NFL films for a time period.
It is rainy and cold in the D.C. area now.  Going downtown D.C. to watch THE Game...132th Meeting?.. in 20plus degree weather!  Hope it will be warmer at gametime and clear for the players and the fans in Willytown.
Same for the other games around the league.  Stay dry, warm and safe!  Enjoy your games!,

[FanOfNescac]

NESCACMan.... Hockey hastened Union's departure from NESCAC, but in the early-mid 80s, Union's football program also outgrew NESCAC, first with former Brown assistant Joe Wirth and then with Al Bagnoli (who of course went on to win a bunch of Ivy titles at Penn and now has Columbia winning).Under Bagnoli, and with plenty of institutional support, Union began recruiting de facto I-AA athletes in large quantities (the the type of players that Williams or Amherst has always gotten here and there, but not in bulk) and making the D3 playoffs almost every year, including a couple losses in the national championship game. Union sustained this level for a decade or more. Not sure how they are today. But back then, Union was playing Hamilton, Middiebury and Williams every year and those schools were happy to see Union go elsewhere. As you and others have said, D3 fortunes rise and fall, but for a while Union was among the best programs in the country and had no business in NESCAC.

FanOfNescac...While your description of the rapid improvement of Union College football in the eighties is accurate, the conclusions you draw from it, that Williams and Middlebury were glad to see the Dutchmen go, and that they were too cool for school by Nescac football standards, simply don't wash.  From 1982 through '87, the final season in which Union played it's Nescac rivals, the Panthers and the Ephs were both in slumps.  During that period only Middlebury managed to have a winning season doing so in 1983.  That was the year Union let Augustana come back from 10 points down in the 4th Q in losing the championship game.  They were 10-2 overall that year.  The one regular season defeat was at the hands of 6-2 Middlebury.  In 1987 both Union and Middlebury played .500 ball, Union going 5-5 and the Panthers going 4-4.  The fact that Union only won their final confrontation by a score of 9-7 would indicate that neither was playing at a different level than the other.  I believe that in 1989, two seasons after being little more than Middlebury's equal, Union was no more capable than the top Nescac team would have been, if allowed, of advancing to the championship game.  My assumption is based on the fact that 1989 was the third season of Dick Farley-coached Williams football.  The Ephs were a perfect 8-0.  After a 4-4 start in 1987, Farley's Ephs lost a total of 14 games over a stretch of 16 seasons.  I doubt that in competing against that consistent level of excellence, programs like Trinity, Amherst, Middlebury, Wesleyan and Tufts devolved in any way.  It was quite the opposite.  Since one could argue that Union was no better in head-to-head competition than one of the top Nescac teams in 1983, and plausibly again in '89, I see no reason to think that in the process of keeping up with the Ephs during the Farley era and the Whalen era that followed, Union football ever reached a level that made it superior to the best the Nescac had to offer.  What Union did do in the eighties was to improve from Nescac cellar dweller to Nescac contender, an accomplishment Hamilton and the CBB should try to emulate.  I've posted here earlier that I don't judge the pollsters too harshly for ignoring our conference since we give them no basis for comparison with other leagues.  I do believe, however, that each season the top two or three Nescac elevens warrant inclusion in the DIII top 25.  IMO  And fyi, Union has been in a slump the past four years but they reached the D3 playoffs as recently as 2006.  Their 2009 record was even better but failed to earn them a D3 playoff berth.

Vandy74.... Resepect for your knowledge. Some thoughts: In the early-mid 80s, when Union was ramping up its football program, there were actually two seasons when Union lost only one regular season game, and in both cases that loss was to a NESCAC team. In 1983, Union lost at Middlebury and, as you correctly recall, went on to lose narrowly to Augustana in the national championship game. (Augustana was the Mount Union of its time; Union not only had a 10-point lead late in the game, but was driving for an insurance touchdown, leading 17-14, when Union fumbled near midfield. Augusta marched in for the winning score, Good football game). The next year, 1984, Union was heading for an unbeaten regular season, when it lost the last game of the year, at Hamilton. Union was invited to the tournament nonetheless, defeated Plymouth State (and Joe Dudek) in the first round, before getting handled pretty easily at Augustana in the national semifinals. So yes, for sure you could argue that based on those outcomes -- Middlebury in 83 and Hamilton in 84 -- Union was a national title contender, but no better than good NESCAC teams. I think if you asked Mickey Heinecken or Bob Odell (or Farley) or Steve Frank (Hamilton), you would get a different -- or at least a more complex answer. Middlebury and Hamilton each beat Union on muddy fields in cold, rainy, windy weather that neutralized Union's advantages. Plus, that 83 Middlebury team was good! (I think Hamilton was solid in 84, as well). In that same time period (82-83-84) , Union trounced a mediocre Williams team in Schenectady, tacking on a late score (or maybe it was a field goal) that angered Odell, who acknowledged after the game the growing talent gap between the teams and his anger at Union for running up the score. (Union's counter to this was, ``They had no problem with us when they were beating us for the last 30 years.''). My sense, back then and now, is that guys like Heineken and Odell/Farley were game for fighting it out with Union, because they are competitors, but that they felt Union was playing by different rules. (The same kind of thing that some people say, rightly or wrongly, about Trinity today). Union, by the way, held at a high level for more than decade and played Dayton for the national championship in 1989. As to the question of whether the good NESCAC teams could -- and can -- compete nationally, I think there is no doubt they could. Just avoid the real powerhouses like like Mount Union, etc. (Sorry for the long post; it's an interesting topic).

[westcoastDad]

Lumbercat,

Cosell was the standard.  His impact on sport is stoll underappreciated.   We would tune in to see and hear him ....just as much as to view the event.  Miss that guy!!!

[AlDavisStill]

Nescacman who do you like in Leo Tolstoy vs. Fyodor Dostoyevsky......was fortunate to be involved in that 2013 prognostic startup...." Just Win Baby "

[Nescacman]

Nescacman
I think everyone accepts your poison pen approach at this point and don't take it all too seriously.
The Hartford State nickname has stirred some controversy and that is understandable as you are relentless with it. That agenda has become your signature but it certainly adds color to the board. Let me say I appreciate the time and effort you put into your coverage. It really makes this board and I always enjoy reading your posts.

As for your gritty, honest reporting style it reminds of the late Howard Cosel who always pledged to "tell it like it is". I dub you "Howard" for that reason, seems an appropriate nickname as you seem to reflect Cosell's approach to athletics. Also, by referring to you as Howard all of those on the board will avert the sometime confusion between you and NESCAC1 based on the similarity or your posting names.

Very interesting rumor about Gilmore. Can Colby afford him?

Regarding Bates QB Costa. He has very strong arm (HS Javelin champ) and throws extremely wall on
the run and very well going to his left.
Costa is not the issue in the Bates passing game, the problem is lack of a playmaker at the WR position. Bobcat WRs are sure handed but on the slow side and have difficulty getting separation. Costa will be an all conference QB if they can protect him and get a playmaker or 2 at WR. He needs a little work on accuracy but beleive me he can throw the ball.

Lumber, after consulting with our colleagues, we wholeheartedly accept your comparison to the late, great Howard Co-sell and are honored to be mentioned in the same breath as he. Much appreciated and honored. He was a hero to us. Thank you as well for your kind words and good luck this week as your 'Cats try to finish the year on a 3-0 run.

As an aside, we find it refreshing that what has brought this entire board together (well except for our "friends" from Hartford State), is EVERYONE'S unwavering hatred of that Team from Hartford. We find it interesting that their supporters have completely gone radio salient now that they are proven to be mere mortals, rather than some super-human Team comprised of a bunch of "Khan"-like players ("Trekkies" get the analogy). Wouldn't it be nice if they finished 2017 on a 2 game slide and Picirrilo, Breuler, Morris, Kaminski and Co. were able to take a nice scoreboard pic from the "Coop" post-game...we can only dream...

Picks due out later today...we promise some surprises for our first ever Week 9 picks!

[TheFlock]

Our correspondents did some research.  There are 14 student athletes who were on the recruiting boards at all of the Ivy League schools.  They were rejected from every school except PENN.  All 14 are on PENN's roster.  Maybe we should refer the the school as PENN STATE!  Oh wait....that would be confusing. 

[Trin9-0]

As an aside, we find it refreshing that what has brought this entire board together (well except for our "friends" from Hartford State), is EVERYONE'S unwavering hatred of that Team from Hartford.

I think this is a bit of a stretch. Maybe I'm mistaken, but my impression is that most of the adults who frequently post here have a begrudging respect for Trinity and recognize that they've been the best program in the NESCAC over the past 15 years (with Amherst a close second). Do you know why nobody hates Wesleyan? It's because they're irrelevant.

You can make all the claims you'd like, but I'm convinced I have you pegged as a former mediocre high school athlete who was rejected by Williams, thus your unhealthy obsession with Kelton. Now you're a jock-sniffer who pals around with actual athletes on the Wes football team. Your bias toward the Cards (and against pretty much anyone else) is undeniable. I don't doubt you have friends at a few other NESCAC schools who you talk to about the league, but claiming that is a "network of sources" is laughable.

Soon enough you'll graduate and we won't hear from you again, aside from an annual update on Aaron Kelton of course. I, for one, won't miss you.

I am looking forward to Trinity Homecoming tomorrow. It's supposed to be chilly with some windy which could have a huge impact as Piccirillo has more pass attempts than anyone in the NESCAC and Puzzo may have to put the ball in the air often as the Wes rushing defense ranks below only Amherst and Trin in that category.

Getting Chipouras involved early and limiting big plays to Breuler will be key for Trinity. It should be a great game! I'm hopeful but not optimistic about Williams' chances against Amherst but I'll be checking the score often. GO BANTS! GO EPHS (shudders)!

[BantamMom]

Lumber, after consulting with our colleagues, we wholeheartedly accept your comparison to the late, great Howard Co-sell and are honored to be mentioned in the same breath as he. Much appreciated and honored. He was a hero to us. Thank you as well for your kind words and good luck this week as your 'Cats try to finish the year on a 3-0 run.

As an aside, we find it refreshing that what has brought this entire board together (well except for our "friends" from Hartford State), is EVERYONE'S unwavering hatred of that Team from Hartford. We find it interesting that their supporters have completely gone radio salient now that they are proven to be mere mortals, rather than some super-human Team comprised of a bunch of "Khan"-like players ("Trekkies" get the analogy). Wouldn't it be nice if they finished 2017 on a 2 game slide and Picirrilo, Breuler, Morris, Kaminski and Co. were able to take a nice scoreboard pic from the "Coop" post-game...we can only dream...

Picks due out later today...we promise some surprises for our first ever Week 9 picks!

I think Nescacman is the ONLY one on this board who truly "Hates" TRINITY - Everyone else has an actual life and can't delegate that much energy towards them.   I never posted ANYTHING in regard to the Amherst/TRINITY game because I had a bad feeling about it pre-game and and after the game I had nothing good to say about it.  They showed signs of being very beatable and were soundly outplayed.  The final score makes it sound much more evenly matched than it was.  I don't recall any TRINITY people forecasting a huge win, most of those opinions came from other people. 
It's great that the league is making Head-to-Head play the deciding factor when there is a record tie, but regardless of it being official, I do believe that given two 8-1 records, everyone would have known who the actual champs were (most of all the players).  In the end all the boys, including those at TRINITY, are getting a top grade education along with some fun playing football. 
Trin-8-0 - I truly laughed out loud at your assessment of Nescacman being a former mediocre athlete and a current jock-sniffer who was once rejected by Williams - I had a different but similar assessment :-)  Good luck to everyone tomorrow - I hope everyone plays their best football and nobody gets hurt!

[middpantherpride]

2014 was not that far away... Seem to recall some pictures from Wesleyan's locker room where they were trashing Trin on the white board after a victory against the Bants

Should be a good one. I will say, I enjoyed playing Trinity. I remember the Trinity coaches yelling to two of my teammates towards the end of the game "We are gonna to run the ball down your throats freshman!" Let's just say we forced a 3 and out and then our offense drove down and won the game 27-24. Would not saddened one bit if Wesleyan won.

Cheer. Boys. Cheer.